Help me to decide if paying almost £1000 for a diesel hob in my van is a good (MSE) investment

ThisIsWeird

Andy_L said:

To me burning fuel to heat up a ceramic hob to then heat pans of food seems very inefficient compared to just burning the fuel & using that flame directly to heat up the pans

It might not be as efficient at transferring the heat - I don't know - but the bigger picture here is overall running costs, and here diesel seemingly wins hands-down.

Electric heating is a lot more efficient than gas - pretty much 100% eff - but still a lot more costly.

And then add the room-saving and convenience.

Section62

GervisLooper said:

The appliance states that it will consume, at maximum, 0.27 litres per hour of diesel during operation.

Now I am trying to figure out how much cost per hour of diesel that would be. I have been tying myself in mental knots trying to figure that out!

Once I have that I can x by 365 to get the average annual cost of using an hour per day.

If the "Espar CombiHob will boil a kettle of cold water in approximately 10-12 minutes" I'd question whether the assumption 1 hour diesel cooking = 1 hour gas cooking holds true.

You also need to factor in maintenance/servicing of the diesel appliance, I'd assume it has a relatively hardworking pump... whereas the equivalent gas appliances have next to no moving parts to go wrong.

The diesel combustion products would (I assume) need to be vented outside (not clear from the information on the website) which may cause you problems if you regularly park in built-up areas.  Some councils may prohibit use of diesel burning heaters in their public spaces.  If it doesn't vent to outside then I personally wouldn't have it in my living space.

Have you considered a small induction hob running off an inverter?

Andy_L

Section62 said:

GervisLooper said:

The appliance states that it will consume, at maximum, 0.27 litres per hour of diesel during operation.

Now I am trying to figure out how much cost per hour of diesel that would be. I have been tying myself in mental knots trying to figure that out!

Once I have that I can x by 365 to get the average annual cost of using an hour per day.

If the "Espar CombiHob will boil a kettle of cold water in approximately 10-12 minutes" I'd question whether the assumption 1 hour diesel cooking = 1 hour gas cooking holds true.

You also need to factor in maintenance/servicing of the diesel appliance, I'd assume it has a relatively hardworking pump... whereas the equivalent gas appliances have next to no moving parts to go wrong.

The diesel combustion products would (I assume) need to be vented outside (not clear from the information on the website) which may cause you problems if you regularly park in built-up areas.  Some councils may prohibit use of diesel burning heaters in their public spaces.  If it doesn't vent to outside then I personally wouldn't have it in my living space.

Have you considered a small induction hob running off an inverter?

its been suggested to the OP in his other threads.

The situation is that he wants to live in the van permanently, rather than just for holidays, and that he eats/cooks a lot of rice that takes ages to simmer rather than the sort of quick-cook foods that campervan holiday makers would typically use instead

Andy_L

ThisIsWeird said:

Andy_L said:

To me burning fuel to heat up a ceramic hob to then heat pans of food seems very inefficient compared to just burning the fuel & using that flame directly to heat up the pans

It might not be as efficient at transferring the heat - I don't know - but the bigger picture here is overall running costs, and here diesel seemingly wins hands-down.

Electric heating is a lot more efficient than gas - pretty much 100% eff - but still a lot more costly.

And then add the room-saving and convenience.

I'm mean using the diesel (or other liquid fuel) in a stove directly rather than comparing this gadget to a gas burning stove 

Andy_L

GervisLooper said:

I am sure many will be shocked at that initial upfront cost however I have crunched the numbers and it appears that it would turn out as good as using gas between 2 to 3 years of use - 2 really with many benefits which make it more appealing over other cooking fuel sources.

Once the initial cost had been cleared it would then be saving money of about £214 in fuel costs.

Gas I worked out costs around £312 per year for using it to cook one hour per day average. I worked this out as I pay around £2 per 220g gas cartridge for a camping stove and they last me about 3 cooks at an hour a day. I also worked out that normal calor bottles costs about the same with a refill cost of around £40 per refill of a 6kg bottle. Even with the latter though you have to factor in £300 odd for gas cupboard making the diesel option pay for itself in 2 years rather than 3 with that. I do not see myself wanting to use the little catridges for any length of time because they are rubbish to work with (flame dies within about 10 minutes degrading more and more as bottle empties) not to mention the horrible amount of metal wastage.

EDIT - Ok my workings out for the diesel I think were initially coming out wrong due to having trouble with diving two decimals (1.62/.27). I think it is going to be even cheaper than I thought. I used a different calculator online and it said the above calculation is 0.166 which would mean 10 pence per hour of fuel cost x 365 = £60 per year.

Lpg is cheaper than normal gas at average 80p per litre going off memory however the install is the big cost there too with around £512 at least for an underslung tank kit. Also the drawback is hard to find places to refill it.

There are many positives to diesel though beyond just the money saving. I would want this if it were equal in price or even marginally more than the cost of gas.

I wont have to pay for or install a gas cupboard or have the wasted space it produces.

Also it is a combihob meaning heater and hob so I will be able to heat the space without have to add more devices thus saving space again.

Another is not having to mess about with gas bottles, their attainment compared to the ease of attaining diesel which I use for my van anyway.

Its £28 for 6kg of propane, not £40 (so ~1/2 the price of the 220g bottles) ETA:  which will make a big difference to your break-even calculation

https://www.calor.co.uk/lpg-prices

QrizB

GervisLooper said:

Gas I worked out costs around £312 per year for using it to cook one hour per day average. I worked this out as I pay around £2 per 220g gas cartridge for a camping stove and they last me about 3 cooks at an hour a day.

So, with gas, you're using 70g (0.07kg) an hour, 67p a day.

A kilogram of gas contains about 12kWh/kg, so 0.07kg is 900 watt-hours. If you use that in an hour, that's an average of 900 watts - which is within the typical range for a single, small gas burner.

Andy_L said:

Its £28 for 6kg of propane, not £40 (so ~1/2 the price of the 220g bottles) ETA:  which will make a big difference to your break-even calculation
https://www.calor.co.uk/lpg-prices

That's £4.67 per kg, so 70g would cost 33p.

GervisLooper said:

Lpg is cheaper than normal gas at average 80p per litre going off memory ...

A litre of LPG is half a kg, so LPG is £1.60 per kg. 70g would cost 11p.

GervisLooper said:

£1.62 is the price of 1 litre of diesel.

The appliance states that it will consume, at maximum, 0.27 litres per hour of diesel during operation.

But you won't be running it flat out all the time. I would expect you to be running it at 900 watts, ish, the same as your gas stove.

A litre of diesel contains about 10kWh. Running a burner at 900 watts for an hour would use 90ml (0.09 litres) of diesel. If diesel costs £1.62 a litre, 90ml will cost 15p.

To summarise:

On an equivalent energy basis, your cooking costs will be:

• 220g gas cartridges: 67p a day.
• 6kg propane: 33p per day.
• Bulk autogas: 11p per day.
• Diesel: 15p per day.

Compared to 220g cartridges, diesel would save you 52p/day, £190 a year.

Compared to 6kg propane, the saving is 18p a day, £66 a year.

Autogas is 4p/day, £15/yr, cheaper than diesel, which can probably be ignored.

QrizB

For anyone who is interested, here is the Espar Combihob.

https://eberspacherdirect.com/espar-combihob/

Espar / Eberspacher are a big name in vehicle heating, and the Combihob appears to have a dedicated external air inlet and exhaust, much like Espar's diesel heaters do. The risk of the van user asphyxiating themselves should be low, provided it is installed correctly.

GervisLooper

Some people mention it would take a decade or more to "pay it off" but that is misleading imo. I will be paying to cook meals one way or the other so it doesnt matter what it costs in isolation. If I didnt buy this it isnt like I would just live for free on fumes from the atmosphere otherwise. So I would be using another fuel source, which costs money, most likely gas. So that is what it should be compared against.

QrizB said:

GervisLooper said:

Gas I worked out costs around £312 per year for using it to cook one hour per day average. I worked this out as I pay around £2 per 220g gas cartridge for a camping stove and they last me about 3 cooks at an hour a day.

So, with gas, you're using 70g (0.07kg) an hour, 67p a day.

A kilogram of gas contains about 12kWh/kg, so 0.07kg is 900 watt-hours. If you use that in an hour, that's an average of 900 watts - which is within the typical range for a single, small gas burner.

Andy_L said:

Its £28 for 6kg of propane, not £40 (so ~1/2 the price of the 220g bottles) ETA:  which will make a big difference to your break-even calculation
https://www.calor.co.uk/lpg-prices

That's £4.67 per kg, so 70g would cost 33p.

GervisLooper said:

Lpg is cheaper than normal gas at average 80p per litre going off memory ...

A litre of LPG is half a kg, so LPG is £1.60 per kg. 70g would cost 11p.

GervisLooper said:

£1.62 is the price of 1 litre of diesel.

The appliance states that it will consume, at maximum, 0.27 litres per hour of diesel during operation.

But you won't be running it flat out all the time. I would expect you to be running it at 900 watts, ish, the same as your gas stove.

A litre of diesel contains about 10kWh. Running a burner at 900 watts for an hour would use 90ml (0.09 litres) of diesel. If diesel costs £1.62 a litre, 90ml will cost 15p.

To summarise:

On an equivalent energy basis, your cooking costs will be:

• 220g gas cartridges: 67p a day.
• 6kg propane: 33p per day.
• Bulk autogas: 11p per day.
• Diesel: 15p per day.

Compared to 220g cartridges, diesel would save you 52p/day, £190 a year.

Compared to 6kg propane, the saving is 18p a day, £66 a year.

Autogas is 4p/day, £15/yr, cheaper than diesel, which can probably be ignored.

That is really helpful thanks a lot.

Still looking good even under scrutiny then.

Well the autogas also has the high upfront cost as mentioned of £512 odd for underslung tank, when I looked at the kit prices, and also becoming more and more difficult to find, many van users are saying. Also the £300 odd for gas cupboard if using a "proper" gas setup rather than the cheap and tacky cartidges which I think I will want to upgrade from soon.

As someone else rightly mentioned though it isnt just about pure cost but also about improving your vanlife experience but of course it is a bonus to know the numbers still look good but perhaps should be the icing on the cake. People spend plenty of sunk cost on their hobbies so if it is improving quality of life then cost saving should perhaps not be the paramount factor. In my case though I did move out of a flat to a van exclusively as one of my main motivations being saving money so it is quite high on my priority list, just that other things should also be considered.

GervisLooper

Andy_L said:

ThisIsWeird said:

Andy_L said:

To me burning fuel to heat up a ceramic hob to then heat pans of food seems very inefficient compared to just burning the fuel & using that flame directly to heat up the pans

It might not be as efficient at transferring the heat - I don't know - but the bigger picture here is overall running costs, and here diesel seemingly wins hands-down.

Electric heating is a lot more efficient than gas - pretty much 100% eff - but still a lot more costly.

And then add the room-saving and convenience.

I'm mean using the diesel (or other liquid fuel) in a stove directly rather than comparing this gadget to a gas burning stove 

Are you suggesting using a highly volatile liquid fuel inside of the campervan, because this type of stove mentione in the OP does not have any open flame, that is why they are seen as safer generally even than gas stoves? I guess you are thinking of coleman type pressure stoves which are used for camping which can run on petrol or diesel at a push. My mum happened to have one in the garage which I was testing in the garden and I found it pretty volatile and found quite a few things could go wrong with them causing possibly dangerous outcomes. That is talking about using them outside let alone indoors.

I want to cook inside the van, that is important to me which liquid stoves do not seem safe to do with, especially in a tiny transit connect. I did pitch that idea to people online initially, thinking it would be much cheaper and simpler, and they almost unanimously said it would be idiotic to do.

ThisIsWeird

QrizB said:

GervisLooper said:

Gas I worked out costs around £312 per year for using it to cook one hour per day average. I worked this out as I pay around £2 per 220g gas cartridge for a camping stove and they last me about 3 cooks at an hour a day.

So, with gas, you're using 70g (0.07kg) an hour, 67p a day.

A kilogram of gas contains about 12kWh/kg, so 0.07kg is 900 watt-hours. If you use that in an hour, that's an average of 900 watts - which is within the typical range for a single, small gas burner.

Andy_L said:

Its £28 for 6kg of propane, not £40 (so ~1/2 the price of the 220g bottles) ETA:  which will make a big difference to your break-even calculation
https://www.calor.co.uk/lpg-prices

That's £4.67 per kg, so 70g would cost 33p.

GervisLooper said:

Lpg is cheaper than normal gas at average 80p per litre going off memory ...

A litre of LPG is half a kg, so LPG is £1.60 per kg. 70g would cost 11p.

GervisLooper said:

£1.62 is the price of 1 litre of diesel.

The appliance states that it will consume, at maximum, 0.27 litres per hour of diesel during operation.

But you won't be running it flat out all the time. I would expect you to be running it at 900 watts, ish, the same as your gas stove.

A litre of diesel contains about 10kWh. Running a burner at 900 watts for an hour would use 90ml (0.09 litres) of diesel. If diesel costs £1.62 a litre, 90ml will cost 15p.

To summarise:

On an equivalent energy basis, your cooking costs will be:

• 220g gas cartridges: 67p a day.
• 6kg propane: 33p per day.
• Bulk autogas: 11p per day.
• Diesel: 15p per day.

Compared to 220g cartridges, diesel would save you 52p/day, £190 a year.

Compared to 6kg propane, the saving is 18p a day, £66 a year.

Autogas is 4p/day, £15/yr, cheaper than diesel, which can probably be ignored.

Well, that is surely the 👏 post of the year. 😊