Thank you for renewing your policy with Dynamo cover.

Aylesbury_Duck

FlaatusGoat said:

Aylesbury_Duck said:

Qualified legal advice will cost you, so I'd be certain of your liability before engaging it.  If by "tiny small print" you mean terms you agreed to read and comply with, then I doubt a lawyer is going to help.  Wait until you get your SAR results back before wasting any more time or money on it.  

Thanks yes I'll do that. Re the threatening email on the chargeback with the ultimatum. Ignore?

Just further to this, when I raised a complaint I was sent an attachment in response from 2022 mentioning auto-renew in tiny print right at the bottom of the email. Along with a 6-7 different types of documents, policy wording, key facts etc. At the very least this is obfuscation and at worst intentional obstruction combined with book throwing. Annoying to say the least. What would you do at this point (if you don't mind me being direct...)?

What would I do?  Let me check the situation. 

1. You've been auto-renewed and charged £100 for a policy you no longer want.
2. At this stage, you're not sure they've complied with their terms because a) you can't lay your hands on the original terms and conditions, and b) you're relying on your relatives having forwarded every single piece of correspondence sent to your old address.
3. You've been offered a refund of £55 (cancelling the policy for a charge of £45).
4. You've refused and instigated a chargeback.
5. Dynamo have suggested you cancel the chargeback (although one poster says you're unable to do this, but I don't know if that's correct) and try and resolve it with them.  If this was possible, presumably the offer would be that outlined in (3).  If you don't cancel it, they may charge you an additional £45.
6. You're awaiting the results of a SAR to see if they are able to auto renew in the way they have, and if they've breached any of the original contractual terms.

If that's all correct, I would sit tight.  It's possible you can't cancel the chargeback, and if you're intent on obtaining a full refund, the only way to do that is to await the result of the SAR and hope that they've messed up somewhere.  As I see it, your best possible result is a refund of £100, the only certain result was a refund of £55 but the possibility of that outcome seems to have passed, and the possible worst cost to you is something like £145 (the cost of the policy plus their £45 charge for a failed chargeback, if that's enforceable).  Having started a chargeback and submitted a SAR, you may as well see how they unfold.

cannugec5

I would be interested to know if failing to inform them of the change of address is in itself a breach of the terms and conditions. Certainly with my own breakdown cover ‘Home’ needs to be defined. Cover options may include breakdown issues at home, or from a minimum specified distance from home only. 

I am assuming you have made no use of the policy in the past year…

pinkshoes

In late 2020 there was an outline published on auto-renew policies along with what would be deemed an unfair term.

As you were collecting all your post from the previous address, then I think the address issue is not relevant at this point, so focusing on the auto-renewal, it would be deemed unfair if:

• The contract does not specify the length of the contract. 
• The pre-contract information does not say that the contract will automatically renew unless cancelled. 
• There is no explanation about how a consumer can cancel the subscription. This can be referred to as the ‘subscription trap’ where customers have to go through loopholes to find out how to cancel a subscription that will otherwise automatically roll over by default. The subscription cancellation steps may be particularly hard for a vulnerable customer. For example, one who is elderly or disabled. 
• No reminder is sent to advise that the contract is due to automatically renew unless cancelled by the consumer or the reminder does not explain the steps to be taken to cancel the subscription. 
• The charging of an unreasonable cancellation fee to end the contract. 
• The customer is not told about a price hike at the end of the contractual period with the contract automatically renewing on revised terms that are at a significant disadvantage to the customer in comparison to a new customer. This can be referred to as the ‘loyalty trap’. 

I think the two highlighted in bold are ones you need to quote. They should have sent you an auto-renewal email/letter with details of the new price and what you need to do to cancel. If they have not done this, then they shouldn't be charging an admin fee to cancel. 

I'd await the SAR request as they need to prove they did indeed send the relevant documentation. 

In their email they are correct in that you should have contacted them to discuss the matter before going to the bank. It might be worth telling them you're happy to renew but certainly not at four times the price, and if they had sent documentation notifying you of the price they would have got an immediate cancellation from you.

eskbanker

pinkshoes said:

In late 2020 there was an outline published on auto-renew policies along with what would be deemed an unfair term.

An outline what, published by who?

sheramber

FlaatusGoat said:

On the address issue, I have family members at my old address and they tell me about any post. I'm about 10 minutes away and pop up and pick up what arrives. It's a block of flats though at it's been known to go through to the wrong door or the communal landing and get binned by cleaners/maintenance. However, I've lodged a subject access request requesting copies of all correspondence and crucially 'when it was sent'

To be clear on the policy wording if there's some tiny small print saying we will renew on X automatically have I effectively got no leg to stand on. Should push come to shove I don't know if I can rely on the 'reasonable' argument...any further guidance here? Is it time to get some qualified legal advice here or try to contact CAB?

Does it say on the policy document that it is automatic renewal?

My car insurance policy document stated it under the payment   details.

FlaatusGoat

Aylesbury_Duck said:

FlaatusGoat said:

Aylesbury_Duck said:

Qualified legal advice will cost you, so I'd be certain of your liability before engaging it.  If by "tiny small print" you mean terms you agreed to read and comply with, then I doubt a lawyer is going to help.  Wait until you get your SAR results back before wasting any more time or money on it.  

Thanks yes I'll do that. Re the threatening email on the chargeback with the ultimatum. Ignore?

Just further to this, when I raised a complaint I was sent an attachment in response from 2022 mentioning auto-renew in tiny print right at the bottom of the email. Along with a 6-7 different types of documents, policy wording, key facts etc. At the very least this is obfuscation and at worst intentional obstruction combined with book throwing. Annoying to say the least. What would you do at this point (if you don't mind me being direct...)?

What would I do?  Let me check the situation. 

1. You've been auto-renewed and charged £100 for a policy you no longer want. Yes
   
2. At this stage, you're not sure they've complied with their terms because a) you can't lay your hands on the original terms and conditions, and b) you're relying on your relatives having forwarded every single piece of correspondence sent to your old address. The original T's And C's were buried in a bundle of documents and attachments Via Email
   
3. You've been offered a refund of £55 (cancelling the policy for a charge of £45). Roughly, yes. So in effect £45 for 6 hours of break down cover.
   
4. You've refused and instigated a chargeback. No, I cancelled the policy immediately as soon as I saw the email, and I then contacted my bank
   
5. Dynamo have suggested you cancel the chargeback (although one poster says you're unable to do this, but I don't know if that's correct) and try and resolve it with them.  If this was possible, presumably the offer would be that outlined in (3).  If you don't cancel it, they may charge you an additional £45. Basically exposing them as the nasty business they clearly are - resorting to threats. I feel like I'm dealing with a private parking company. Not an insurance broker!
   
6. You're awaiting the results of a SAR to see if they are able to auto renew in the way they have, and if they've breached any of the original contractual terms. I'd certainly like to see what if anything was sent to my physical address.
   

If that's all correct, I would sit tight.  It's possible you can't cancel the chargeback, and if you're intent on obtaining a full refund, the only way to do that is to await the result of the SAR and hope that they've messed up somewhere.  As I see it, your best possible result is a refund of £100, the only certain result was a refund of £55 but the possibility of that outcome seems to have passed, and the possible worst cost to you is something like £145 (the cost of the policy plus their £45 charge for a failed chargeback, if that's enforceable).  Having started a chargeback and submitted a SAR, you may as well see how they unfold.

Thanks AD - responding in bold

FlaatusGoat

sheramber said:

FlaatusGoat said:

On the address issue, I have family members at my old address and they tell me about any post. I'm about 10 minutes away and pop up and pick up what arrives. It's a block of flats though at it's been known to go through to the wrong door or the communal landing and get binned by cleaners/maintenance. However, I've lodged a subject access request requesting copies of all correspondence and crucially 'when it was sent'

To be clear on the policy wording if there's some tiny small print saying we will renew on X automatically have I effectively got no leg to stand on. Should push come to shove I don't know if I can rely on the 'reasonable' argument...any further guidance here? Is it time to get some qualified legal advice here or try to contact CAB?

Does it say on the policy document that it is automatic renewal?

My car insurance policy document stated it under the payment   details.

Buried way down at the bottom. So does this mean this matter is effectively cased closed - apparently in their favour? Am I not entitled to some sort of prior notification or warning that's clear and obvious. Which I never received.

FlaatusGoat

pinkshoes said:

In late 2020 there was an outline published on auto-renew policies along with what would be deemed an unfair term.

As you were collecting all your post from the previous address, then I think the address issue is not relevant at this point, so focusing on the auto-renewal, it would be deemed unfair if:

• The contract does not specify the length of the contract. 
• The pre-contract information does not say that the contract will automatically renew unless cancelled. 
• There is no explanation about how a consumer can cancel the subscription. This can be referred to as the ‘subscription trap’ where customers have to go through loopholes to find out how to cancel a subscription that will otherwise automatically roll over by default. The subscription cancellation steps may be particularly hard for a vulnerable customer. For example, one who is elderly or disabled. 
• No reminder is sent to advise that the contract is due to automatically renew unless cancelled by the consumer or the reminder does not explain the steps to be taken to cancel the subscription. - FG : Correct. No reminder was received
  
• The charging of an unreasonable cancellation fee to end the contract. 
• The customer is not told about a price hike at the end of the contractual period with the contract automatically renewing on revised terms that are at a significant disadvantage to the customer in comparison to a new customer. This can be referred to as the ‘loyalty trap’. 

I think the two highlighted in bold are ones you need to quote. They should have sent you an auto-renewal email/letter with details of the new price and what you need to do to cancel. If they have not done this, then they shouldn't be charging an admin fee to cancel. 

I'd await the SAR request as they need to prove they did indeed send the relevant documentation. 

In their email they are correct in that you should have contacted them to discuss the matter before going to the bank. It might be worth telling them you're happy to renew but certainly not at four times the price, and if they had sent documentation notifying you of the price they would have got an immediate cancellation from you.

Thanks PinkShoes responded to your above quote and correct. I've raised a complaint with Dynamo - had one basic response - effectively a copy and paste book throwing exercise. Tempted to point out your bullets but I'm fairly sure I'm on ignore at this stage. They don't seem to want to know about complaints. Needless to say I've raised a complaint with the financial services ombudsmen and I'll make the above bullets clear to them however I'd hope they'd already be familar with this.

FlaatusGoat

Hi I wanted to come back with an update on this, but before that interestingly MSE actually PM'ed me as they were interested in doing a story on the shady auto-renew industry. I even passed my phone number to them. Sadly the editor never actually rang and got in touch but oh well.

Any way, back to the Dynamo. Still waiting on the SAR, I don't think it's been quite a month yet so can't escalate to the ICO. In the meantime I've had a long back and forth with them and separately I've advised the Financial Services Ombudsmen. TLDR - The crux of the matter is that the auto-renew feature is buried in all sorts of legalize that you agree to over a year prior, and the actual renewal notification is a particularly spamy/shady email 'notification' with no indication as to what it's about other than click here and login.

With the complaint and the pending FSO involvement, Dynamo have basically given me an ultimatum or dare I say blackmail with all sorts of legal blah blah if I don't comply. They demand I instruct my bank to cancel the merchant dispute on my card (not sure my bank will even allow for this even if I ask) AND drop my complaint to the FSO. Then they'll refund me and drop the matter. 

Any thoughts?

I wonder what their motivations are? Do think that the Financial Services Ombudsmen will likely throw the book at them or are they playing good cop with me.

born_again

Can't reverse a chargeback from your end.

As to FOS complaint, let it run. Just what FOS will do. I doubt it will be much other than a slap on the wrist, unless they have a lot of complaints on the same thing.