Electric radiators placements - advice

Gerry1

FreeBear said:

TheElectricCow said:

Insulation is probably going to be the biggest factor in how much heating power you’ll need. Options may be limited for a top floor flat, but getting the place as best insulated as possible will be far more beneficial in the long run than adding more heat output.

Tip - Hang the heaters on an internal wall rather than sticking them under a window. That way you are not pumping heat in to an external wall and wasting it.

Debatable.  Radiators are usually placed underneath windows to prevent cold draughts.  You can always place heat reflecting foil behind the radiator.

Scot_39

Rippone said:

MattMattMattUK said:

How old is the flat, neighbours on two sides, and below? A well insulated modern flat will need less heating than an older one.

I live in a 110sq. m. flat, modern, very well insulated, four years old, it is electric only and has panel heaters, it is not expensive to run because it leaks very little heat, I have neighbours on two sides, above and below, but comparatively an older flat on a top floor even with half the square footage could easily require 3-5 times the heat to stay warm than I need. 

You also need to estimate your total consumption, if you can get most usage to off peak then as Tim says storage heaters running on E7, together with heating your water at night would work out far cheaper, but if you have a lot of daytime use that cannot be shifted then you have to work out the difference. 

The block of flats was built in the late 80s. I live top floor, with neighbours only below me. On the north side (where hallway, bathroom, kitchen are) there is the communal area of the property with a staircase. I am exposed on the South, East, and West sides

Summertime usage is about 150 kW/h. During deep winter about 350 kW/h. 

For the HRR storage heaters I was quoted £4000. If I install electric ceramic radiators, I would spend roughly £1000. I made the maths, and if my calculation are correct, given my day/time electricity usage, HHR heaters would start paying off in 4 to 5 years. 

I don't know where I will be in 5 years, it is possible I may not be in the same property by then. Because of this, and because I much prefer the flexibility of using electricity on demand, I have opted to install electric ceramic radiators. 

Hope this makes sense  

Thank you everyone for your responses! 

Have you considered the impact on home value or ease of sale even if not staying ?

The pay back on hhr and me switching e10 to e7 was well over 10 years - nearer 20 in 2019 -  but lot less now I guess.
I thought one of my old was broken - the quote for all 3 - older cheaper non RF c2019 prices - fitted was around c3k including second supplies.


Do you have E7 style wiring or metering - some flats neice looked at last year had e7 for hw but live fed heating panels - potentially the worst possible combination (paying e7 peak day rates - often several pence above standard rate - for heating) 

Seriously though when my neice was looking at flats we discounted many with only live panel heaters due to potential running costs.

As to ratings /  sizing.

The likes of Dimplex website has a sizing calculator where you can type in room sizes and #exposed walls etc and top middle bottom for flats iirc. and select heater type - nsh or panel.

It comes with caveats but might be useful as a rough guide

See 

https://www.dimplex.co.uk/room-heating-calculator

As to location - avoiding heating cavity and/or outside walls / below windows often a good thing if can.

Rooms - I don't like warm bedrooms - so never use heating in mine.  And my winter use only  quilt is a summer 4.5 tog.

I live in a small 2 bed mid terrace.
It has 3 nsh - living room - on adjoining wall, small downstairs hall inner wall next to living room  kitchen doors, and in small upstairs hall - between 2 bedroom doors - and just over 1m from bathroom door.
Living room c3.2kW charge - guess over 1kW output - seldom charges more than 1 hr 3x daily.
The two others 1.8kW input - sometimes charge upto 1.5-2 hrs 3x daily in cold spell.
All 3 on min around 15kWh daily on mild winter months (I start with lr, then add halls as temps drop) - more like 20-25kWh in a cold snap like early Dec last year.

The kitchen, bathroom have wall mounted pull cord fan heaters, the bedrooms panel old thin convector style heaters. The fan one in the bathroom is only one of those used - sparingly - only on coldest days - for whilst wet after shower.

The nsh in halls gives enough heat for other times. To keep bedrooms etc to c15C.  I keep a thermometer in living room and one of the bedrooms and manually tweek my old heaters regularly accordingly.

A more modern nsh like quantum have a boost mode for live feed extra heat delivery.  In their case a direct fan heater style element rated upto c1kW - rather than a boost element to brick heat store iirc. And of course a programmable thermostat system with adaptive charging.  So miles ahead of my old analogue "brick charge input dial" and convection grill "output" control.

Scot_39

Gerry1 said:

The crippling cost of running panel heaters on daytime electricity will reduce the value of your flat and make it difficult to sell.

Most potential buyers will run a mile !

Or even worse - and I have seen homes like it when loking last winter - running on e7 meters - so potentially at even higher day peak rates.

FreeBear

Gerry1 said:

FreeBear said:

TheElectricCow said:

Insulation is probably going to be the biggest factor in how much heating power you’ll need. Options may be limited for a top floor flat, but getting the place as best insulated as possible will be far more beneficial in the long run than adding more heat output.

Tip - Hang the heaters on an internal wall rather than sticking them under a window. That way you are not pumping heat in to an external wall and wasting it.

Debatable.  Radiators are usually placed underneath windows to prevent cold draughts.  You can always place heat reflecting foil behind the radiator.

Traditionally, radiator are placed under windows to combat cold draughts, But with modern high efficiency double/triple glazing, this should no longer be necessary. If the windows are not up to current spec, some thick thermal curtains will help to reduce the heat loss.

Gerry1

FreeBear said:

Gerry1 said:

FreeBear said:

TheElectricCow said:

Insulation is probably going to be the biggest factor in how much heating power you’ll need. Options may be limited for a top floor flat, but getting the place as best insulated as possible will be far more beneficial in the long run than adding more heat output.

Tip - Hang the heaters on an internal wall rather than sticking them under a window. That way you are not pumping heat in to an external wall and wasting it.

Debatable.  Radiators are usually placed underneath windows to prevent cold draughts.  You can always place heat reflecting foil behind the radiator.

If the windows are not up to current spec, some thick thermal curtains will help to reduce the heat loss.

Having the light bulbs on all day won't be very money saving...

QrizB

Rippone said:

My flat is electricity only, no storage heaters. EPC D. Top floor, south facing, 3 sides facing  outside. 

About 60 square metres, and almost a semi-detatched bungalow.

My first house was a mid-1970s 3-bed semi, 70 square metres. Your flat isn't much smaller and has a larger footprint (as you're one storey, not two).

Rippone said:

I am thinking about placing a 2000W radiator in the main bedroom, a 2000W in the living room, and a smaller (1000/1500W) in the small bedroom. Would that be sufficient?

I imagine that 5kW total will probably be sufficient. You might find you need more than 2kW in the living room and less in the bedrooms.

Rippone said:

I spoke with few builders, and some have advised that a radiator in the hallway is necessary to support the living room and keeping the heat in the bedrooms, others have said that is not because of size of the flat and how small the hallway is.

Personally, I wouldn't heat the hall. I might think about some heat in the bathroom (a towel rail or wall-mounted heater, of a type suitable for bathrooms).

Rippone said:

Summertime usage is about 150 kW/h. During deep winter about 350 kW/h.

I agree with EssexHebridean; that winter number seems hopelessly optimistic for a 60 sq.m. top-floor flat. If you're using 5kWh/day in the summer, you're suggesting you'll only need another 7kWh/day in the winter.

What does your EPC say regarding annual energy demand for heating and hot water?

Rippone said:

For the HRR storage heaters I was quoted £4000. If I install electric ceramic radiators, I would spend roughly £1000. I made the maths, and if my calculation are correct, given my day/time electricity usage, HHR heaters would start paying off in 4 to 5 years.
I don't know where I will be in 5 years, it is possible I may not be in the same property by then. Because of this, and because I much prefer the flexibility of using electricity on demand, I have opted to install electric ceramic radiators.

On the other hand, HHR storage heaters might add £5k to the value of the property vs. panel heaters.

Ectophile

Defore you spend £1000 on expensive ceramic heaters, go look at the price of oil filled radiators or convector heaters at your local DIY shed or electrical retailer.

The fancy ceramic heaters are no more efficient than the cheap ones.

Personally, I would go oil-filled if I had to do electric heating, because they give out a gentler heat with less smell of burning dust.

markin

Don't waste money on "magic dust" rads, a £50 panel heater or £20 oil heater per room will do exactly the same as a ceramic heater.

And when you find out the cost to run them you will have more money to spend on the correct HH SH

MultiFuelBurner

Gerry1 said:

The crippling cost of running panel heaters on daytime electricity will reduce the value of your flat and make it difficult to sell.

Most potential buyers will run a mile !

Do you really believe this to be true?

Most people that don't frequent these type of forums have no idea.

MultiFuelBurner

I take it planning would not allow an air to air heat pump multi split system?