Neighbour interfering with viewings

Grizebeck

MeteredOut said:

Bailey1980 said:

sheramber said:

The police should  deal with a claim of harassment

https://www.police.uk/advice/advice-and-information/sh/stalking-harassment/how-to-report-stalking-harassment/

We have asked them to but they have refused stating that it isn't harassment and even if they considered that it was harassment it's too complex/difficult to pursue. 

If, as you say, you have evidence of this abuse/harassment, and the police are refusing to take action, then take this directly to your MP; that's their job.

Not going to achieve anything.  The police may have concluded it is not at the criminal threshold

Bailey1980

Titus_Wadd said:

OP you have my sympathy. 

We have been suffering for 4 years and logged crimes and ASB with Police and council.  Both bodies deny the attacks from our neighbours from hell are crimes or Anti-social Behaviour. 

They did serve a CPN, but then refused to enforce it! (I'm pretty sure a CPN (community protection notice is an ASB remedy, but hey-ho they still won't enforce the breaches even though they came to photograph the breach).

The police are only interested in public order offences and log each incident piecemeal and we have both been assaulted twice!  The police charged one with one assault but cocked up the evidence (video of the assault) and he was acquitted.

Have you contacted Victim Support (I've found them very helpful, though results may vary). 

Also read the ASBHelp website, but being a charity they are stretched pretty thin.  Their website is a great source (including their professional pages).  However, being up-to-date with the latest ASB government guidance leads to frustration when the council says the Government Guidelines are just a "serving suggestions" and aren't mandatory!
We've been asked by a Chief Inspector to supply statute and case law that makes us believe they or the council should act!!! It's been like a Kafkaesque nightmare with police and council ineptitude being called "secondary victimisation" by victim support.

We plan to sell at a loss, there's no alternative really.  We've had one Police and one Local Government Ombudsman complaint upheld so far, with another live complaint being investigated by the LGO at the moment.

The police are not interested unless we have an independent witness and/or full obvious video film (it's hard to film consistently when being assaulted).  It begs the question how did they "police before mobile camera phones or video door bells?

We have kept logs for 4+ years and hours of video footage that these two bodies refuse to look at yet their Web pages brag about extra government funding for ASB, which is galling!

OP just keep logging incidents with Council and police...just don't expect them to do anything with it.  I'll let you know if we get any breakthrough to protect us.

We have experienced similar, although it hasn't been over 4 years; instead a few months and I am sorry to hear of what you are going through. 

Like you the police have treated each incident separately/in isolation even though we had been told all the reports had been attached to the original file but this doesn't seem to have happened. 

They did put a marker on the address, but when I've called to report further incidents I've had arguments with the operators as they have questioned why I am calling and on two occasions refused to take any details.  Complaint was made about the refusal and upheld; all that happened though was a disciplinary for the operator. 

The day where the threats were being screamed/shouted at us and the individual indecently exposing themselves, it took 4 calls to 101 and 2 calls to 999 over the course of 7 hours (as that was how long the screaming/shouting was going on for) before the police attended , despite the marker  and being told this would mean there would be an urgent response and the behaviour continued for another 2 hours after that. 

The police that attended refused to view the CCTV footage we had of the above and told us it's a civil dispute as it's a nuisance and the individual is doing the behaviour on their property/footpath outside our house so it's nothing to do with the police. 

We have been in touch with victim support, but they haven't been able to do anything. They've just said they are a listening service. 

We have put in a complaint about it all which has been upheld and an officer is supposed to be contacting us to discuss it all/all the incidents  but we haven't heard anything - admittedly it has only been two weeks so maybe we are being unfair. 

We logged it with the council but they said it was a police matter despite us telling them that the police said it was a civil matter. 

We have evidence but no one is willing to look at it; although police have also refused to take statements from neighbours who have seen all of this, which is why I am convincing myself that I must be crazy and experiencing things that aren't there. I've had to rewatch all of the video footage we have collected multiple times which has been traumatising because the police, council, solicitors and other agencies have been telling us the incidents didn't happen and we didn't experience the feelings that we did. 

sheramber said:

Bailey1980 said:

sheramber said:

The police should  deal with a claim of harassment

https://www.police.uk/advice/advice-and-information/sh/stalking-harassment/how-to-report-stalking-harassment/

We have asked them to but they have refused stating that it isn't harassment and even if they considered that it was harassment it's too complex/difficult to pursue. 

From the link above to the police uk website shows police should deal with someone being “offensive or threatening”. Being complicated is no excuse or there is more information you are not giving us. 

Send a complaint to the chief Constable.  If you are not prepared to pursue it nobody can help you.

What to contact the police about

• an animal behaving aggressively, or being used illegally (eg fighting)
• if you've found drugs or have information about drug dealing
• vandalism or damage to private property
• someone being indecent, threatening or offensive
• abandoned or stolen vehicles
• someone parking in your driveway or stopping you from being able to get off your own property
• speeding or dangerous driving

We have contacted the police about the individual being indecent threatening or offensive, but they are telling us that the individual was not threatening or being offensive and that we have not experienced any alarm or distress and even if we did, the individual is likely to deny doing it deliberately which would make charging them and a trial more difficult. We have messages in writing from the police saying this. 

I understand we have to help ourselves it's just mentally very difficult and straining especially when I am having to hold it together for everyone else, look after everyone else and still do my job. I just feel alone with no one to turn to and none to help me. Plus if a number of individual officers don't believe us and are telling us we weren't alarmed or distressed, how can we convince the Chief Constable? All I can think is that we are not great communicators as we cant seem to get anyone to understand/listen to what happened and how we felt. 

Friends and family have told us to let it go as we arent living in the house anymore so there's no point. Grizebeck said:

@bailey80   I can help you with a civil injunction if you wish to go down that route
The court fee for an injunction either on notice or ex parte (without notice) is £332 
You can get the injunction worded so any breaking of it is a criminal offence
you do not need a solicitor for this

I am not soliciting for business here as Injunctions are not a tracked matter so they are not something i deal with in the county court on a professional basis but I have served one on a former neighbour and they broke it, they got arrested and then were very quiet as a result

Have a general read here
https://www.netlawman.co.uk/ia/injunctions

Thank you. I'm just worried about doing this; police attendance hasn't achieved anything; in fact it caused the behaviour to get worse and we can't help worrying that a civil injunction would be more antagonising and trigger even more/worse behaviour. Again we have been told by friends/family/police not to bother going down this route as it won't achieve anything. 

A few of the solicitors we spoke to said taking any civil action would cost us £5K-£20K and obviously no guarantee it would achieve anything / that we'd get anything out of it. ThisIsWeird said:

Bailey1980 said:

I was trying to reply to the last few comments but the page crashed and lost the responses. Will try again a little later. Apologies, it's all very draining and feels like too much. 

Your desperation is completely understandable.
I will state this clearly, tho' - once you take proper action against these folk, you will feel the pressure on you lift.
You tell yourself, over and over again, that these folk just cannot get away with this.
You remind yourself, over and over again, that these folk cannot actually do anything physical to you.
Yes, their behaviour is deeply offensive and can even be traumatising, but you can face this, and determine that you will not allow it to be so. 
I mean, what can they actually do to you? They can shout. They can 'cuss. They can threaten. 'All' you need to do is stare at them and shake your head slowly, as if they were nuts. If you can add a wry smile, then all the better.
AND RECORD IT ALL. AND REPORT IT ALL.
They cannot touch you. If they do, that's a whole different level of crime, and they will be nailed for it.
You CAN turn the tables on these folk. And it will be more empowering than you can imagine.

Evidence - and - report. Repeat repeat repeat. Escalate escalate escalate.

This WILL work, if what you are telling us is the whole story.

Thank you. We feel we did take proper action of contacting the police on each occasion, providing them with the evidence as well as contacting the council. As above though no one believes us and they keep telling us that it's a civil nuisance and that we haven't been scared or traumatised. 

Plus after we called the police out on the first time, the behaviour of the individual got worse and has escalated each time the police have been called out but still nothing has been done. 

I get what you are saying but i'm terrified for mine, my family's and dog's safety as the individual seems capable of physical violence.  I'm barely keeping it together and I've already had to deal with OH attempting to hurt himself because of the mental toll it's taking. The individual chased after some other neighbours with a hammer, chased them into their house and was then banging on the neighbours window and door screaming and shouting. Police refused to speak to these neighbours and take a statement. This was the same night they were screaming and shouting threats at us (kill, s*xually assault). All captured on the CCTV which the police refused to review at the time and on sending it in we were told the matter was dealt with that night so there was nothing that could be done after the event. 

I'm not eating, I'm barely sleeping and just about mangaging to do my job but its only a matter of time before I slip up. 

Grizebeck

@Bailey1980
Those are legal costs and your a litigant in person. So forget any of that.
The injunction is your best option through this.
The injunction is there to protect you.
I am going to be blunt. Your saying your scared it will antagonise them etc but if you don't grab the bull by the horns then your not going to get any where with this
You can moan about the police etc not doing anything but you have a civil option at tour disposal. Quick. Relatively cheap and straightforward. I've offered to assist you.
So what's stopping you ?

Bailey1980

Murphybear said:

mark_cycling00 said:

I don't feel it's fair to say that the police won't get involved. Any threat of violence is very serious and so is attempting to poison an animal. 

When someone texted me some threats of violence, the police immediately called them up and scared the !!!!!! out if them.
Similarly, my friends ex moved to Australia and sent a Facebook message with a death threat and now if they enter any UK port or airport they immediately get arrested. They have a special "panic" number to call too. (no-one who sends a death threat ever carries it out btw)

One route might be to allow your neighbour to harass and threaten you via Facebook etc. That way you have written evidence that you can screenshot and show to the police.

Your neighbour is stupid and probably drunk and will easily be tempted to incriminate themselves.

Good luck. 

From what you have said it sounds as if it could be harassment.  

“Harassment and stalking are classed as offences under the Protection from Harassment Act 1997 and (where the offending is racially or religiously aggravated) the Crime and Disorder Act 1998. Both offences relate to behaviour that is repeated and unwanted.”

If not already done so, keep a detailed diary of the problem and approach the police again and/or get the council and your MP involved.  Hopefully your MP is as helpful as ours, he helped me very quickly when I had a problem with the DWP.  

As said in one of my recent replies - police are convinced that we haven't experienced any alarm or distress, we haven't been scared,  and even if we have, the individual will deny it and it will make any charge/ trial more difficult.

Everyone has told us that we should let it go - it's not worth pursuing, we aren't living there any more so there's no point. 

As I said as well, I'm barely hanging on and cant find the energy to keep on fighting when everyone is telling us the same thing - that nothing has happened , we aren't scared and we are perfectly safe. I just feel there's no one i can turn to and no one that can/willing to help.  As also in my other reply if we can't convince multiple individual officers, the council, agencies like victim support, independent solicitors what chance is there of convincing an MP? I'm already convinced I'm crazy and have made everything up because of this attitude. Grizebeck said:

@Murphybear which is why an injunction is the best possible answer in this matter and pretty quick (depending on the court). Everything else is very slow 
The OP can do a detailed witness statement over the weekend. Fill in the N16A form get it all logged with the local court and the process starts 
They could have it logged with the court on Monday if they so desired.
Trust me it does work.

Thank you - as in the other reply the behaviour has got worse each time police have attended and i can just see the injunction doing the same and anatagonising them and the police not doing anything about it if breached. Plus we'd be blamed for antagonising the indvidual - police told us after the first event not to make any noise in our house as it would antagonise the individual and the police would then take a dim view of us and think we are deliberately seeking to get a reaction so they will be less likely to take any action against the indvidual because we have provoked them. 

Grizebeck said:

Where in the country are you @bailey80

I'd rather not say publicly just in case anything can be traced back to me. GDB2222 said:

Grizebeck said:

BlueVeranda said:

Has the estate agent been doing the viewings? if so could they give a witness statement about what they have observed to back up the OP? I would think it's in their interest for this to be sorted too.

Tbh that isnt really need.  A w/s from the OP is sufficient 

The OP says they have approached 20 solicitors, and none have wanted to get involved. It may be that the OP is not prepared to pay, as the standard legal fees for an injunction would be several thousand pounds. Whilst an injunction can be DIY'ed, that's a daunting prospect for someone unused to court procedures.  

Of course, even paying a solicitor for an injunction is probably much less than the loss on the property if they sell it cheaply. 

We haven't been given any standard fee - just that taking civil action would cost us £5k-£10k which we don't have 

Grizebeck said:

‘Its actually quite straight forward to do it themselves even if the prospect of it is daunting , judges dealing with litigants in person are actually most helpful

Grizebeck said:

GDB2222 said:

Grizebeck said:

‘Its actually quite straight forward to do it themselves even if the prospect of it is daunting , judges dealing with litigants in person are actually most helpful

That's a very generous offer, and if I were the OP I'd very gratefully accept. 

I've never taken out an injunction against anyone. What does the OP do if the neighbour ignores the injunction?

Well the injunction can include a power of arrest in certain situations
They do work against those who think they are above the law
However the mere injunction is enough to stop people in their tracks 

We are grateful for the offer but worried. Police attendance has made the behaviour worse so has had the opposite effect.MeteredOut said:

Bailey1980 said:

sheramber said:

The police should  deal with a claim of harassment

https://www.police.uk/advice/advice-and-information/sh/stalking-harassment/how-to-report-stalking-harassment/

We have asked them to but they have refused stating that it isn't harassment and even if they considered that it was harassment it's too complex/difficult to pursue. 

If, as you say, you have evidence of this abuse/harassment, and the police are refusing to take action, then take this directly to your MP; that's their job.

It's having the energy and mental faculties to do this without any help/support. And if we can't convince multiple individual officers, the council, agencies like victim support and solicitors what chance is there of convincing the MP. I'm already convinced that I'm crazy because of the agencies we have approached have told us things haven't happened as we telling them and we aren't /weren't scared. Think my mind will completely shatter if one more person tells me this. 

Bailey1980

Grizebeck said:

MeteredOut said:

Bailey1980 said:

sheramber said:

The police should  deal with a claim of harassment

https://www.police.uk/advice/advice-and-information/sh/stalking-harassment/how-to-report-stalking-harassment/

We have asked them to but they have refused stating that it isn't harassment and even if they considered that it was harassment it's too complex/difficult to pursue. 

If, as you say, you have evidence of this abuse/harassment, and the police are refusing to take action, then take this directly to your MP; that's their job.

Not going to achieve anything.  The police may have concluded it is not at the criminal threshold

That's precisely what it seems to be - as well as making charging them/the trial more difficult. 

I think there were some other comments about who is doing the viewings - it is the estate agents. 

Bailey1980

Grizebeck said:

@Bailey1980
Those are legal costs and your a litigant in person. So forget any of that.
The injunction is your best option through this.
The injunction is there to protect you.
I am going to be blunt. Your saying your scared it will antagonise them etc but if you don't grab the bull by the horns then your not going to get any where with this
You can moan about the police etc not doing anything but you have a civil option at tour disposal. Quick. Relatively cheap and straightforward. I've offered to assist you.
So what's stopping you ?

And we really appreciate the offer I guess we are trying to figure out what the right thing to do is as friends, family & police have told us not to take any action - civil or otherwise; especially the police as they have said they won't do anything to help us in future if we take any action 

I'll try and get some sleep as that's likely to help with the decision making and will drop you a PM; though I'm probably going to have to wait until I get paid or see if i can convince someone to lend us the money for the court fee. 

Grizebeck

More then happy to assist 
When you have time to sit down ( if you decide to do this) then you should write a clear factual timeline of events 
Keep it factual with out emotion 
You then use this to build you witness statement 
What can also help is relevant case law which I can find ( although not essential)
Then  use the above to build your witness statement. 
The application is the easy bit tbh
You then take it to the court 
Personally if you are getting to the point where you are I would make an application ex parte ( without notice) The judge will hopefully grant an interim injunction and then there is a substantive hearing.

ThisIsWeird

Very kind offer, indeed, Grizebeck.

How much of what has taken place can you evidence, Bailey? Including the threats and 'attack' on other neighbours? Is this recorded in a police case? Do you have the case numbers for these?
As I said, if what has been going on is anything approaching an accurate account, I cannot see any way at all that this hasn't crossed - completely - into criminal behaviour, 'public order' or whatever.
In which case, PLEASE escalate this up the police chain of command. It's time for a formal complaint. AND do see your MP. 
You will hopefully be writing a concise outline of events for Griz. Use that. Add references to all forms of evidence, other folk involved, when the police were called, how they responded.
This is SHOCKING! I know the force is under pressure, but this neglect is NUTS!
What's more, the police should be 'happy' to act, as it should add to their tally of successes - help their 'performance'! Seems an easy case.

GDB2222

The thing about an injunction is that it is under your control. You get the court to issue an injunction, and serve it on the neighbour. If it’s breached, you go back to court and ask the court to commit the neighbour to prison! You are not asking the police to decide whether a crime has occurred, but you simply go back to the court with evidence that the injunction has been breached.

Unless this is a really serious breach, the chances are that the court will call the neighbour before it and warn him that next time he may well be committed to prison. That’s a sobering experience for the neighbour, and unless he is completely mad he will stop harassing you. 

Incidentally, service of the injunction just means posting it in the mail.  You don’t need to confront him. 

ThisIsWeird

I'm really liking these injunction thingies.