Travelling to Israel & Airline refusing full refund

Crystalpalacian1

SiliconChip I came here to perhaps share my experience with others who are going through the same thing and see what they have done or are doing but it seems most of you are just good at taking digs, ridicule and rebuff everything I say which is far from helpful. 

It seems like all that can be said is, you should have taken travel insurance at the time, well I didn't but there was still time to. I was looking for solutions not telling-offs!

I'm sure I'm not the only person who doesn't take travel insurance as soon as I book something but lesson learnt, let's move on with either being helpful or the very least compassionate but not acting like you're perfect because you take travel insurance as soon as you book. Not everyone is perfect and these forums are meant for unusual circumstances that we don't have an answer at hand for; hence we seek the opinion of others or compare experiences. 

silvercar

Did you book this as one booking? Or two separate bookings. If the former then a cancellation of one flight will allow you a refund of the lot. I know virgin are running one rotation a day, I don’t know what air Seychelles are doing, but I’d take a refund on either if offered. 

Crystalpalacian1

silvercar said:

Did you book this as one booking? Or two separate bookings. If the former then a cancellation of one flight will allow you a refund of the lot. I know virgin are running one rotation a day, I don’t know what air Seychelles are doing, but I’d take a refund on either if offered. 

No I booked it as two separate bookings, the Virgin (VS) one was directly with them and the Air Seychelles (HM) one was via SkyScanner / My Trip. From some contacts, it seems that HM flight is likely to be cancelled anyway, the VS one I'm not too sure. I'll give it another week. 

Thanks

eskbanker

Crystalpalacian1 said:

Luckily my home insurance includes free legal advice and this scenario met the conditions to receive this, as there is a real chance I could end up stranded in Israel. So I've spoken to a travel law firm this morning. Their advice were as follows:
1. The FCDO advice is a significant material consideration in this case, given I was not privy to this advice at the time of booking, I am at a disadvantage to those who were. In a legal dispute, this is likely to weigh in my favour. 
2. I will be refused travel insurance or have invalid travel insurance if I travel contrary to the FCDO advice. Travel insurance is a fundamental right for every traveller. 
3. Since covid, the Seychelles require all foreign visitors to have travel insurance which they must provide detail of on the electronic border system ahead of entering the country.
4. If the airlines are cancelling or reducing flights, they themselves acknowledge there is a problem and must allow passengers the choice of cancellation.   

Apparently, points 2 & 3 could be sufficient to get a credit card charge back as whilst I could get a separate travel insurance to the Seychelles, going via Israel is likely to invalidate it anyhow. 

If you're now in the hands of a travel law firm then you probably don't need any further input from posters on here, but for what it's worth, I still can't see any realistic likelihood of a card chargeback working, based on that rather contrived logic about insurance - the chargeback rules are fairly specific about what qualifies, and airline terms are always clear that it's the traveller's responsibility to obtain all necessary documents, i.e. if you don't or can't get insurance that's not the airline's problem and they can refuse boarding (without any refund obligations) if you don't.

I don't really understand point 1 about being at a disadvantage to those who were privy to FCDO advice at the time of booking - the situation in Israel has obviously evolved very quickly and nobody booking prior to Saturday would have had any inkling of what was coming, and I doubt anyone would have booked after Saturday?

Point 4 seems partially right, in terms of airlines acknowledging a problem, but in itself that doesn't trigger automatic refund obligations (unless VS cancels the specific flight you're booked on).  However, based on the Virgin page link linked earlier, and your rumours about Air Seychelles, it would seem a distinct possibility that you'll be offered the option to refund or rebook by the airlines, which should resolve the situation, and it would appear that this is the most realistic expectation, rather than being able to hold either of them in breach of contract.

Crystalpalacian1

eskbanker but your points are contradictory in themselves. So nobody will book flights to Israel now because of the situation and FCDO advice but you expect those who have a booking made prior to this advice to complete ignore it and just go-ahead, just because the airline is still flying there?

The airline can refuse me boarding without travel insurance but the fact that I cannot get travel insurance even if I try must be ignored because the airlines haven't cancelled their flights?

So what you're effectively saying is that only the airline can decide if and when the FCDO advice is relevant enough for them to cancel flights, ordinary customers must ignore this advice as long as the airline is still flying to Israel? So only when the airlines admit that it is not safe to fly there can I expect a full refund, if I decide it is not safe for now due to the FCDO advice, this is irrelevant? At the very least this is a breach of consumer rights!

eskbanker

Crystalpalacian1 said:

eskbanker but your points are contradictory in themselves. So nobody will book flights to Israel now because of the situation and FCDO advice but you expect those who have a booking made prior to this advice to complete ignore it and just go-ahead, just because the airline is still flying there?

There's no contradiction there - it's not about what I expect people to do, and I'm sure that I'd be reluctant to travel in such circumstances and certainly wouldn't be making a new booking, but that doesn't mean that those who booked before it all kicked off have any automatic right to a refund.

Crystalpalacian1 said:

The airline can refuse me boarding without travel insurance but the fact that I cannot get travel insurance even if I try must be ignored because the airlines haven't cancelled their flights?

When you booked, the airline terms will have highlighted that it was your responsibility to obtain all relevant documentation needed to travel to your destination (and that they'll accept no financial liability for any failure to do so) - the fact that you elected not to secure the insurance before now doesn't actually change anything.

Crystalpalacian1 said:

So what you're effectively saying is that only the airline can decide if and when the FCDO advice is relevant enough for them to cancel flights, ordinary customers must ignore this advice as long as the airline is still flying to Israel? So only when the airlines admit that it is not safe to fly there can I expect a full refund, if I decide it is not safe for now due to the FCDO advice, this is irrelevant?

The airlines are indeed responsible for determining whether or not it's safe to fly there, albeit with input from governments and regulators, and they're not obliged to cancel flights because of FCDO advice to travellers, which is why some are continuing to fly and others aren't.  It's obviously up to travellers as to the level of risk they're prepared to accept, but if the airline elects to continue flying, and they're not mandated to stop, then there's no obligation for them to refund those who choose not to travel.

Crystalpalacian1 said:

At the very least this is a breach of consumer rights!

Which specific consumer rights provisions do you believe are being breached, i.e. which Act and which clause(s)?

k12479

Crystalpalacian1 said:

2. I will be refused travel insurance or have invalid travel insurance if I travel contrary to the FCDO advice. Travel insurance is a fundamental right for every traveller.  

Firstly, type 'high risk travel insurance' into google. Secondly, your travel law firm told you this nonsense about insurance being a fundamental right?! I'd find a new firm...

DullGreyGuy

Crystalpalacian1 said:

Luckily my home insurance includes free legal advice and this scenario met the conditions to receive this, as there is a real chance I could end up stranded in Israel. So I've spoken to a travel law firm this morning. Their advice were as follows:
1. The FCDO advice is a significant material consideration in this case, given I was not privy to this advice at the time of booking, I am at a disadvantage to those who were. In a legal dispute, this is likely to weigh in my favour. 
2. I will be refused travel insurance or have invalid travel insurance if I travel contrary to the FCDO advice. Travel insurance is a fundamental right for every traveller. 
3. Since covid, the Seychelles require all foreign visitors to have travel insurance which they must provide detail of on the electronic border system ahead of entering the country.
4. If the airlines are cancelling or reducing flights, they themselves acknowledge there is a problem and must allow passengers the choice of cancellation.   

Apparently, points 2 & 3 could be sufficient to get a credit card charge back as whilst I could get a separate travel insurance to the Seychelles, going via Israel is likely to invalidate it anyhow. 

Your Home LE cover will have provided general advice from a paralegal at a panel insurance firm like Lyons Davidson's not a "specialist travel legal firm" - not even sure such a thing exists. 

1. You were privy to advice at the time of booking, the advice has changed because circumstances have changed

2. You will be refused travel insurance because you left it too late to buy it. There are insurers that cover travel to war zones (how do you think journalists travel to these places?) 

3. Not a problem, other than you left it late to buy. You could now buy travel insurance that cover high risk travel or you could have bought standard insurance prior to the weekend

4. They are acknowledging less customers want to travel and flying empty planes is expensive. They will cancel flights to consolidate passengers, those on cancelled flights will have rights depending on the replacement flight offered is.

Chargeback is a discretionary process and fairly simplistic, you could win a chargeback and then find yourself in court with the airline to pay your debt and their costs. Or they could take RyanAir's approach of banning you for life until you repay the debt. Much more likely you will lose the chargeback.

Ultimately you decided to take a risk by buying non-refundable flights and not buying travel insurance. Many people do the same and save themselves money but occasionally the gamble doesn't pay off. Just need to suck it up and decide in the future if such a gamble is worth while or if your better taking less risk.

Crystalpalacian1

These comments are just contradictory, malicious and simply unnecessary. I am not journalist, I have no intention of travelling into a war zone, why is that so difficult to digest? I did not not buying insurance, I just did not buy it at the time of booking, sorry if you all pulled out your crystal balls and predicted this, I might live in Crystal Palace but I possess no crystal ball. How many people will only really buy only non-refundable flights for a leisure trip? Especially if travelling business class?

What I do have is a bit of legal background in planning law and I am a qualified Town Planner who sometimes give planning advice online but I'm not a pessimist nor a basher, if someone comes online and seek advice for breaching planning law, I try my best to help them find a remedy, not give them lectures and telling offs. 

Chargeback is a discretionary process and fairly simplistic, you could win a chargeback and then find yourself in court with the airline to pay your debt and their costs. Or they could take RyanAir's approach of banning you for life until you repay the debt. Much more likely you will lose the chargeback.

So @DullGreyGuy, you think a judge will completely ignore the extremely usual circumstances surrounding the case and rule in favour of the airline? Oh...so a war broke, happens everyday nothing usual here, carry on as normal! You might stuck there but for now the flights are operating, so you must go and the airline is completely in the right to penalise for not wanting to go. You should have reasonably predicted this and buy insurance at the first given opportunity. Don't you see how ridiculous this sounds? 

Please make sure you never accept doing jury service with that kind of thinking and logic, or you will condemn innocent people. 

DullGreyGuy

Yes, because the T&Cs deal with this. Its not like its the first war to break out in 100 years, you can see what happened recently with Ukraine/Russia and a host of other conflicts (they just dont get as much TV coverage - we'll avoid the discussion as to why)

You are mistaking the law with something about fairness... the law is the law, it's applied fairly blindly, the judge doesn't decide what is fair but what's allowed. Parliament is the place where the law is created not the court (accepting law evolves in common law jurisdictions). In my line of work the Financial Ombudsman frequently points out that its role is to determine a fair outcome and unlike the courts they aren't bound to blindly follow the law. 

There are no juries in civil law.