Travelling to Israel & Airline refusing full refund

phatbear

Crystalpalacian1 said:

phatbear said:

Ironic that you dont like doing things last minute but you havent got travel insurance yet!

Pardon me but I thought we were here to help and advise fellow forumites not bash them with unhelpful comments.

Unless you've been living on a different planet for the last 50 years, with the current UK - Israeli diplomatic relation, it is highly unlikely the UK government will ban travel to Israel entirely unless WWIII is about to break out. However, I think I'll pass on a suicide mission, so I'll pursue with my fight as I have taken the government advice of NOT TO TRAVEL UNLESS FOR ESSENTIAL REASON, meeting up with an old friend is not essential for me, in any case he's fled Israel so my trip there would futile anyhow. 

Pot calling the kettle black me thinks.

Try youre luck with amex i would be willing to bet you a pack of kitkats they wont cover you as its your choice not to travel given the current situ, very similar to the initial outbreak of covid lots of countries werent on the no fly list therefore it was individuals choice to no go to certain countries, a choice i had to make but thankfully i had paid with avios therefore got everything bar £35 back. For ref unless you have a platinum amex you wont have travel insurance with them.

Please keep us informed of the outcome as im sure others will be effected by this situ too.

Crystalpalacian1

A chargeback is only likely to work if the flight does not actually happen - otherwise the airline is providing the service and it is you choosing not to travel.

I think what all the comments fail to acknowledge is that the circumstances have changed significantly and this is  exceptional. Do you all think I would have willingly booked a flight to Israel if I knew what I know now at the time of booking?

eskbanker

Crystalpalacian1 said:

I've done some research and an armed conflict is considered as an 'exceptional circumstance'

Where is that sourced from and how confident are you that it applies to your booking(s)?

Crystalpalacian1

If it were put before a Judge, there are compelling arguments to suggest that a customer would be entitled to a full refund in this scenario.  This is because customers have a right to cancel (with a full refund) where there are extraordinary circumstances at the place of destination.  There are three key difficulties to argue that FCDO advice does not amount to ‘extraordinary circumstances’.

• The EU Commission have issued guidance stating that government advice against travel would be a ‘strong indicator’ that extraordinary circumstances exist. 
• Recital 31 of the Package Travel Directive gives an example that ‘extraordinary circumstances’ could include:  the outbreak of a serious disease at the travel destination;
• The courts of England & Wales have (independent of the EU) long recognised that holiday contracts are not just about providing bare travel services.  The purpose of a holiday is typically to relax and enjoy the experience.  If a customer feels that they are unable to do so in light of FCDO advice, the case law indicates that they will be entitled to cancel with a full refund.

It is true that the EU Commission guidance is not binding, and that after the Brexit Transition period ends the UK can forge their own path from the EU courts.  Perhaps the UK courts may feel that what is currently regarded as ‘well established case law’ is not ‘fit for purpose’ in the context of a pandemic.  Anything is possible, but unless and until such changes materialise, there are difficult obstacles to overcome!

phatbear

Crystalpalacian1 said:

If it were put before a Judge, there are compelling arguments to suggest that a customer would be entitled to a full refund in this scenario.  This is because customers have a right to cancel (with a full refund) where there are extraordinary circumstances at the place of destination.  There are three key difficulties to argue that FCDO advice does not amount to ‘extraordinary circumstances’.

• The EU Commission have issued guidance stating that government advice against travel would be a ‘strong indicator’ that extraordinary circumstances exist. 
• Recital 31 of the Package Travel Directive gives an example that ‘extraordinary circumstances’ could include:  the outbreak of a serious disease at the travel destination;
• The courts of England & Wales have (independent of the EU) long recognised that holiday contracts are not just about providing bare travel services.  The purpose of a holiday is typically to relax and enjoy the experience.  If a customer feels that they are unable to do so in light of FCDO advice, the case law indicates that they will be entitled to cancel with a full refund.

It is true that the EU Commission guidance is not binding, and that after the Brexit Transition period ends the UK can forge their own path from the EU courts.  Perhaps the UK courts may feel that what is currently regarded as ‘well established case law’ is not ‘fit for purpose’ in the context of a pandemic.  Anything is possible, but unless and until such changes materialise, there are difficult obstacles to overcome!

Two of those three points relate to “holidays” or “package travel” which, regardless of what you were doing at the destination would not be defined thus, hence why flights alone dont have things like ATOL cover but holidays do!

You seem to think you have this sewn up so i say go for it and remember to keep us informed.

eskbanker

Crystalpalacian1 said:

If it were put before a Judge, there are compelling arguments to suggest that a customer would be entitled to a full refund in this scenario.  This is because customers have a right to cancel (with a full refund) where there are extraordinary circumstances at the place of destination.  There are three key difficulties to argue that FCDO advice does not amount to ‘extraordinary circumstances’.

• The EU Commission have issued guidance stating that government advice against travel would be a ‘strong indicator’ that extraordinary circumstances exist. 
• Recital 31 of the Package Travel Directive gives an example that ‘extraordinary circumstances’ could include:  the outbreak of a serious disease at the travel destination;
• The courts of England & Wales have (independent of the EU) long recognised that holiday contracts are not just about providing bare travel services.  The purpose of a holiday is typically to relax and enjoy the experience.  If a customer feels that they are unable to do so in light of FCDO advice, the case law indicates that they will be entitled to cancel with a full refund.

It is true that the EU Commission guidance is not binding, and that after the Brexit Transition period ends the UK can forge their own path from the EU courts.  Perhaps the UK courts may feel that what is currently regarded as ‘well established case law’ is not ‘fit for purpose’ in the context of a pandemic.  Anything is possible, but unless and until such changes materialise, there are difficult obstacles to overcome!

There is indeed an extraordinary circumstances provision within the Package Travel Regulations, but they don't apply to a flight-only booking, or did you actually book a package?

Caz3121

For the Virgin Atlantic flight keep an eye on this https://help.virginatlantic.com/gb/en/news/travel-alerts/tel-aviv-travel-update.html. Currently they are allowing those booked to travel up till 15th October the option to cancel for refund, as the situation evolves this date will likely change
Air Seychelles may have/may introduce something similar
For future it is important to consider travel insurance once you have a possible financial loss to cover eventualities prior to the trip, insurance is not just for when you are away...if you broke a leg and could not travel you would want travel insurance to cover you (although not all policies would cover your current predicament)

silvercar

Some Amex cards have some sort of cover for disrupted travel.

I would watch both airlines carefully, there is a reasonable chance that they will introduce a travel waiver for your dates in the coming days. Even if your flights are both still operating and there is no waiver, you can often change (but not cancel) a flight for a fee.

Back up plan, travel agents can often hold tickets for a few days without you having to confirm the booking. If direct flights are now too expensive, there are still many options, BA/ Qatar fly via Doho, if you taste for a change in the Middle East hasn’t been extinguished. I’d suggest booking as one ticket rather than 2, so you would be covered if with flight changed.

Wonka_2

eskbanker said:

Crystalpalacian1 said:

I've done some research and an armed conflict is considered as an 'exceptional circumstance'

Where is that sourced from and how confident are you that it applies to your booking(s)?

Google - and ‘not a cat in hells chance’ spring to mind. This is little different from the situation for many during Covid and it seems many haven’t learnt lessons 

and @Crystalpalacian1 as others have said not buying travel insurance at the point of booking is false economy - if you would have been covered previously then you won’t if you were to take it out now. The Amex insurance is worth investigating but the card itself i.e S75/Chargeback certainly won’t 

Crystalpalacian1

Luckily my home insurance includes free legal advice and this scenario met the conditions to receive this, as there is a real chance I could end up stranded in Israel. So I've spoken to a travel law firm this morning. Their advice were as follows:
1. The FCDO advice is a significant material consideration in this case, given I was not privy to this advice at the time of booking, I am at a disadvantage to those who were. In a legal dispute, this is likely to weigh in my favour. 
2. I will be refused travel insurance or have invalid travel insurance if I travel contrary to the FCDO advice. Travel insurance is a fundamental right for every traveller. 
3. Since covid, the Seychelles require all foreign visitors to have travel insurance which they must provide detail of on the electronic border system ahead of entering the country.
4. If the airlines are cancelling or reducing flights, they themselves acknowledge there is a problem and must allow passengers the choice of cancellation.   

Apparently, points 2 & 3 could be sufficient to get a credit card charge back as whilst I could get a separate travel insurance to the Seychelles, going via Israel is likely to invalidate it anyhow.