NHS free dental treatment expensive mistake

Danien

kaMelo said:

Danien said:

kaMelo said:

Danien said:

Maybe take this up with your MP, making these arguments and lobby for either the DWP letter to be changed or for dentists/opticians to need to be more specific when asking the question. I recently went to optician and had to provide rhe letter itself in order to get NHS voucher. I don’t know why dentists don't request you bring benefit letters with you to appointment- it would be a simple change and put the onus on them.

 Dentists and their staff are not benefit advisors and highly unlikely to want to be, why on earth would they agree to such a change? 
The bottom line is that people who claim a benefit are ultimately responsible for knowing what benefit they are claiming and whether or not this qualifies them for other things such as free prescriptions or dental treatment. You cannot offload that responsibility to someone else.

No. I was saying the DWP letters should be more specific about what is being awarded and what that entitles them to and doesn't and to keep the letter to provide when seeking treatment. Dentists and opticians should then have to request the letter as proof. No onus on anyone to be a 'benefit adviser'. And knowing that esa and jsa come in two different types hardly requires intensive training - just a simple conversation with the receptionist staff to be aware and require proof of which one. A simple change of process - my optician receptionist manages it, are dentist receptionists unable to retain a single sentence of information?

Person phones up for dentist appointment - receptionist process requires them to ask if they require NHS treatment to provide proof they are on an income based benefit, and if unsure for client to check with DWP. 

DWP would soon update letter for clarification, if they got constant calls checking.

But it isn't just a simple conversation, by asking for proof they qualify and, to quote your previous post, "putting the onus on them" (make the dentist responsible for any mistakes) makes them gatekeepers to the system which would require training for the dentist and all their staff. Again I ask, why would any dentist agree to such a proposal?  

I'd agree sometimes benefit letters are less than clear but that doesn't negate the responsibility of a claimant to know what benefits they're claiming and what, if any, extra help they qualify for and if they're unsure then they should clarification
You cannot offload that responsibility onto someone else

It is not a complicated thing to grasp.

It is also not unreasonable to expect those who provide treatment to have a basic (short paragraph length) understanding of who qualifies for their services. I provided legal aid help, another service that people on certain benefits and incomes could qualify for (at least at that time). It wasn't expected that the client would know whether they were entitled to legal aid, it was up to us to know and check the client qualified, and that was far more involved than a single paragraph of knowledge. So why are dentists exempt from having to check entitlement?

There are two types of esa and jsa. One qualifies for NHS treatment and one does not. Make sure the client is sure they know whether their type qualifies. What is so pigging difficult about that to grasp. They could even put something on a little card for the receptionist to say to the client when they phone to book, and if the client doesn't know another sentence to tell the client to confirm their entitlement with DWP before attending at appointment. It isn't rocket science. My optician receptionist manages it.

In many cases stated on this board, the receptionist IS acting as a benefit adviser in asking 'are you on esa or jsa' without being specific about 'income based' and ticking the box. NHS dental and optician treatment IS a benefit. They are expected to at least know some details as they are administering access to the benefit.

And it's a situation that could be solved better by a simple sentence on the award letter. After the 'You have been awarded x benefit', then a sentence saying either 'this is a contribution based benefit' or 'this is an income based benefit'. Take it with you when you go for treatment, receptionist reads the sentence, knows simply that income based qualifies, contribution based doesn't.

What is more likely? That a receptionist can read a letter or know there are two flavours of two benefits? Or that the myriad of people with differing intelligence, cognitive ability, understanding, mental health are going to understand that there are different types of the benefit they are on?  I worked in benefits for years, most people do not have much understanding of the benefits they are on and cannot be expected to. It is up to those administering to understand on their behalf and know what questions to ask or what proof to ask for. A receptionist can go on a training course, are you planning to send everyone on benefits on that training course to understand their benefits and what they mean??? That is ridiculous.

poppy12345

In my dentist there's a sign up saying " It's your responsibility to know what benefits you're claiming" make sure you know before ticking boxes. Same for the pharmacy where I get my prescriptions from. 

Muttleythefrog

kaMelo said:

Danien said:

kaMelo said:

Danien said:

Maybe take this up with your MP, making these arguments and lobby for either the DWP letter to be changed or for dentists/opticians to need to be more specific when asking the question. I recently went to optician and had to provide rhe letter itself in order to get NHS voucher. I don’t know why dentists don't request you bring benefit letters with you to appointment- it would be a simple change and put the onus on them.

 Dentists and their staff are not benefit advisors and highly unlikely to want to be, why on earth would they agree to such a change? 
The bottom line is that people who claim a benefit are ultimately responsible for knowing what benefit they are claiming and whether or not this qualifies them for other things such as free prescriptions or dental treatment. You cannot offload that responsibility to someone else.

No. I was saying the DWP letters should be more specific about what is being awarded and what that entitles them to and doesn't and to keep the letter to provide when seeking treatment. Dentists and opticians should then have to request the letter as proof. No onus on anyone to be a 'benefit adviser'. And knowing that esa and jsa come in two different types hardly requires intensive training - just a simple conversation with the receptionist staff to be aware and require proof of which one. A simple change of process - my optician receptionist manages it, are dentist receptionists unable to retain a single sentence of information?

Person phones up for dentist appointment - receptionist process requires them to ask if they require NHS treatment to provide proof they are on an income based benefit, and if unsure for client to check with DWP. 

DWP would soon update letter for clarification, if they got constant calls checking.

You cannot offload that responsibility onto someone else

But we already do.... opticians sometimes check benefit documents for eligibility...

NHS staff query the immigration status of people who may have to pay for treatment (with usually no immigration training) - my wife faced a subtle interrogation while being given oxygen

GP surgeries I understand sometimes try to figure out eligibility to register with them (again usually not immigration trained)

Banks usually are not immigration experts but can be required to determine eligibility for account based on such

We even have DWP DMs taking decisions on disability and health problems but few I imagine are disability experts or medical professionals

Even to get into local venues I often have to show benefit documents to people who I very much doubt have much benefits knowledge and last time I went to the Eden project and showed a U/C statement on my phone they said they needed an award letter (which a U/C statement effectively is a replacement for).

I'm sure there must be other examples of buck passing .. we increasingly live in a buck passing society... I was recently assessed by a receptionist regarding what a week later would be a life threatening illness. 

HillStreetBlues

What should be the practice is the first question is "Do you have to pay?"  yes or I don't know = Payment taken,  No = "what benefit are you on?"
If the don't know ends up as a no, then costs can be claimed back.

sheramber

All thrall these people do it out of choice. There is no requirement for them to do so. 

It is part of their customer service.
If dentists do not choose to train their staff that is a choice they are entitled to make.

My last dental surgery  did not know what was NHS treatment and charged me , incorrectly. 

It took a complaint to NHS Scotland to get them to admit ‘a training need’ and refund my money. 

Danien

poppy12345 said:

In my dentist there's a sign up saying " It's your responsibility to know what benefits you're claiming" make sure you know before ticking boxes. Same for the pharmacy where I get my prescriptions from. 

Yes, but most people don't realise there are different types of jsa and esa. Some extra info like 'for some benefits only the income based benefit qualifies, please check that this is what you receive before ticking boxes).

This would make people aware that there is a difference. In not making people aware, we are basically asking them to know something that they not even think to question.

In another thread the person was asked by the receptionist 'are you on jsa', the person said yes and the receptionist ticked the form. They did not even say 'are you on income based jsa'. There is a certain level of responsibility on the provider to at least give enough information so that the person seeking care at least knows what they should be looking for on an award letter or what they should ask the dwp if they are unsure.

Danien

Muttleythefrog said:

kaMelo said:

Danien said:

kaMelo said:

Danien said:

Maybe take this up with your MP, making these arguments and lobby for either the DWP letter to be changed or for dentists/opticians to need to be more specific when asking the question. I recently went to optician and had to provide rhe letter itself in order to get NHS voucher. I don’t know why dentists don't request you bring benefit letters with you to appointment- it would be a simple change and put the onus on them.

 Dentists and their staff are not benefit advisors and highly unlikely to want to be, why on earth would they agree to such a change? 
The bottom line is that people who claim a benefit are ultimately responsible for knowing what benefit they are claiming and whether or not this qualifies them for other things such as free prescriptions or dental treatment. You cannot offload that responsibility to someone else.

No. I was saying the DWP letters should be more specific about what is being awarded and what that entitles them to and doesn't and to keep the letter to provide when seeking treatment. Dentists and opticians should then have to request the letter as proof. No onus on anyone to be a 'benefit adviser'. And knowing that esa and jsa come in two different types hardly requires intensive training - just a simple conversation with the receptionist staff to be aware and require proof of which one. A simple change of process - my optician receptionist manages it, are dentist receptionists unable to retain a single sentence of information?

Person phones up for dentist appointment - receptionist process requires them to ask if they require NHS treatment to provide proof they are on an income based benefit, and if unsure for client to check with DWP. 

DWP would soon update letter for clarification, if they got constant calls checking.

You cannot offload that responsibility onto someone else

But we already do.... opticians sometimes check benefit documents for eligibility...

NHS staff query the immigration status of people who may have to pay for treatment (with usually no immigration training) - my wife faced a subtle interrogation while being given oxygen

GP surgeries I understand sometimes try to figure out eligibility to register with them (again usually not immigration trained)

Banks usually are not immigration experts but can be required to determine eligibility for account based on such

We even have DWP DMs taking decisions on disability and health problems but few I imagine are disability experts or medical professionals

Even to get into local venues I often have to show benefit documents to people who I very much doubt have much benefits knowledge and last time I went to the Eden project and showed a U/C statement on my phone they said they needed an award letter (which a U/C statement effectively is a replacement for).

I'm sure there must be other examples of buck passing .. we increasingly live in a buck passing society... I was recently assessed by a receptionist regarding what a week later would be a life threatening illness. 

Yes. Pharmacy workers generally know the difference between income based abd contribution based for ticking the boxes.

Having to administrate legal aid in order to help people was complicated (more complicated than simple box ticking or understanding a paragraph of information), but in order to get the contract we needed to be able to do it as well as our main work. 

Danien

sheramber said:

All thrall these people do it out of choice. There is no requirement for them to do so. 

It is part of their customer service.
If dentists do not choose to train their staff that is a choice they are entitled to make.

My last dental surgery  did not know what was NHS treatment and charged me , incorrectly. 

It took a complaint to NHS Scotland to get them to admit ‘a training need’ and refund my money. 

Yes, simple training, which would take 15 minutes with a staff member - make sure people know that only the income based esa and jsa qualifies and if they aren't sure to check first. Simple. It's not onerous.

Who gets the money from the fines? Is it NHS in general or the dentist practice themselves?

Danien

This is relevant. Though some changes may have been made, the vulnerable are still suffering due to lack of understanding of the system. They need simpke help not automatic penalty charges.

https://committees.parliament.uk/committee/127/public-accounts-committee/news/98295/confusing-rules-for-claiming-free-prescriptions-and-dental-treatment-need-changing/

sheramber

Danien said:

sheramber said:

All thrall these people do it out of choice. There is no requirement for them to do so. 

It is part of their customer service.
If dentists do not choose to train their staff that is a choice they are entitled to make.

My last dental surgery  did not know what was NHS treatment and charged me , incorrectly. 

It took a complaint to NHS Scotland to get them to admit ‘a training need’ and refund my money. 

Yes, simple training, which would take 15 minutes with a staff member - make sure people know that only the income based esa and jsa qualifies and if they aren't sure to check first. Simple. It's not onerous.

Who gets the money from the fines? Is it NHS in general or the dentist practice themselves?

but who does the training?  That person has to learn about the rules first.

Dentists are not going to spend time and money on somehting that is outside their  remit unless NHSare going to recompense them for it.

Not much chance of that happening.

Why should it not be the responsibilty of DWP to put  a note on their award letter to advise of any entitlement to free dental treatment/ nhs prescriptions etc. or  inform NHS who can issue a card as happened with tax credits?