Property Boundary Enquiry

user1977

Martinez83 said:

And is it in the middle of buildings developed around the same time? As above, it's likely that it was part of a larger plot of land, the houses were sold off, and the remaining bits are still held by whoever the successors to the original landowner were.

So your assumption might be correct but how to identify who owns the alleyways if LR itself hasn’t got the records? 

Get clues of previous owners of the larger estate through your and/or neighbours' titles or other historical research and take it from there. Sometimes there will be obvious links to current nearby landowners or other entities who might still be around.

Martinez83

There you go:
- blue line - our boundary from the deed
- brown line - current fence
- green line - old boundary stones surrounding all properties
- red - small area in question 

few notes: 
- the square fence was definitely cut to fit the car gate in - no other properties in our neither have this feature
- our backyard is covered in concrete layer and its surface extends beyond the fence into red triangle as far as the mentioned boundary stones (simply speaking - our backyard and the triangle were covered with concrete at the same time)

I went through the paperwork - no further information apart from the small title plan created in early 90’s already showing the angle instead of square. National Greed maps from 40-50’s shows the same area square so essentially the change to original fence happened between 1950-1990’s…

Martinez83

tooldle said:

Can you provide a drawing of the layout? The concrete plinth makes me wonder if there was something sited their previously,  a grit bin for example. Is it an alleyway or, more common with house of 100 years, a service Lane? When you purchased, did the solicitor provide a pack of documents to you after completion? We received (on our 1904 house) a copy of leases and subsequent freehold purchase and all conveyances, planning documents etc dating back to the first sale. Each of the conveyances had a plan attached. This was how things were done until electronic registration with LR came into being. 

See above.

Martinez83

Section62 said:

Martinez83 said:

Absolutely - however in our neighbourhood only our property has this angled feature.

Although that might indicate your physical boundary feature is wrong, it doesn't prove it to be so.  The shape of someone else's garden isn't proof yours should be the same.

Martinez83 said:

Plus as mentioned before - the original survey maps did indeed shown our boundary as square. So essentially someone decided to change the original fence and its shape followed through to the formal plans. Also - what would be the point of the property boundary stones - if property was angled since day one, wouldn’t the stones follow its shape like everywhere else?

OS maps aren't that accurate.  The Land Registry maps typically just show 'general boundaries' based on OS mapping. Old maps showing the corner being square aren't necessarily proof that the true boundary should be square.

Martinez83 said:

But if the road belongs to someone the there should be records of that, right? So if LR / Council don’t have this information then how am I supposed to resolve that ambiguity ? Shouldn’t this information be available to them in same fashion as property deeds?

There may be a record sitting in a solicitor's vault somewhere, or the record may have been destroyed.  It doesn't mean the land isn't owned by someone (or something) - just that there is no (currently) available proof of who or what owns the land.

Property deeds were traditionally kept by the landowner (or their mortgage company) and not something the local council would hold (other than for their own land).  AFAIK the LR wouldn't have copies unless the land had been registered at some point in the past.

In practical terms, you could either start a search through records trying to establish who the owner was (but you may never get an answer), or you could move your physical boundary and see if anyone complains.  If someone does complain then you may need to change the boundary back, so if it were me I wouldn't spend a lot of money on a permanent boundary feature on the (possibly) disputed line.  I.e. do something temporary now and only build the new wall when you are confident nobody will challenge you.

Thank you for the comprehensive answer.

I have spoken to solicitors who advised me that at this stage they can’t really do anything but suggested to get surveyor in to look at the issue and advise accordingly. Would that be something reasonable to do?

As for the suggestion to do something temporary and see what comes next - I don’t think this is an option as apart from connecting the wall back to be square, everything else will look silly. But building it properly should not be too expensive and hence even if we had to change it back it won’t be massively costly - more just a painful exercise.

tooldle

Martinez83 said:

There you go:
- blue line - our boundary from the deed
- brown line - current fence
- green line - old boundary stones surrounding all properties
- red - small area in question 

few notes: 
- the square fence was definitely cut to fit the car gate in - no other properties in our neither have this feature
- our backyard is covered in concrete layer and its surface extends beyond the fence into red triangle as far as the mentioned boundary stones (simply speaking - our backyard and the triangle were covered with concrete at the same time)

I went through the paperwork - no further information apart from the small title plan created in early 90’s already showing the angle instead of square. National Greed maps from 40-50’s shows the same area square so essentially the change to original fence happened between 1950-1990’s…

I think you’ve just answered your own question with the comment about car gate. To get a car in the back, you’d need a hard surface so as not to damage your land,  and room to get the vehicle into the space, hence the angled gate. Seems odd to have boundary stones around the concrete pad though. What do these looks like? I’m imagining something substantial, but perhaps they aren’t.

ThisIsWeird

Martinez83 said:

Section62 said:

Martinez83 said:

Absolutely - however in our neighbourhood only our property has this angled feature.

Although that might indicate your physical boundary feature is wrong, it doesn't prove it to be so.  The shape of someone else's garden isn't proof yours should be the same.

Martinez83 said:

Plus as mentioned before - the original survey maps did indeed shown our boundary as square. So essentially someone decided to change the original fence and its shape followed through to the formal plans. Also - what would be the point of the property boundary stones - if property was angled since day one, wouldn’t the stones follow its shape like everywhere else?

OS maps aren't that accurate.  The Land Registry maps typically just show 'general boundaries' based on OS mapping. Old maps showing the corner being square aren't necessarily proof that the true boundary should be square.

Martinez83 said:

But if the road belongs to someone the there should be records of that, right? So if LR / Council don’t have this information then how am I supposed to resolve that ambiguity ? Shouldn’t this information be available to them in same fashion as property deeds?

There may be a record sitting in a solicitor's vault somewhere, or the record may have been destroyed.  It doesn't mean the land isn't owned by someone (or something) - just that there is no (currently) available proof of who or what owns the land.

Property deeds were traditionally kept by the landowner (or their mortgage company) and not something the local council would hold (other than for their own land).  AFAIK the LR wouldn't have copies unless the land had been registered at some point in the past.

In practical terms, you could either start a search through records trying to establish who the owner was (but you may never get an answer), or you could move your physical boundary and see if anyone complains.  If someone does complain then you may need to change the boundary back, so if it were me I wouldn't spend a lot of money on a permanent boundary feature on the (possibly) disputed line.  I.e. do something temporary now and only build the new wall when you are confident nobody will challenge you.

Thank you for the comprehensive answer.

I have spoken to solicitors who advised me that at this stage they can’t really do anything but suggested to get surveyor in to look at the issue and advise accordingly. Would that be something reasonable to do?

As for the suggestion to do something temporary and see what comes next - I don’t think this is an option as apart from connecting the wall back to be square, everything else will look silly. But building it properly should not be too expensive and hence even if we had to change it back it won’t be massively costly - more just a painful exercise.

I know what I would do, especially when all the due diligence you have already conscientiously carried out came to now't. I'd square it, on the pretty overwhelming assumption that it would represent the correct, original, layout. And then let time make the case.
Take a comprehensive series of photos to show the original boundary features, extended concrete slab, and everything else.
Rebuild the fence (or whatever it is) in a permanent manner, as closely matching your existing as possible. 
Collate all the evidence and research you have gathered into a file. And put it away.
In the extremely unlikely event a nosy neighbour challenges you, just point out the facts: the markings of the original boundary, the extent of your concrete slab, and simply state that 'you are returning your physical boundary to its original position, as you no longer require vehicular access'. 
Do not engage in a discussion - do not add that you've looked into this (as that would suggest uncertainty) - just give them a disparaging look, and repeat the mantra. 
Even if someone tried to raise the issue, which they almost certainly won't, just how far would they get? I mean, you've tried all reasonable avenues and came up with now't.
And in the extremely unlikely event that they (a) manage to locate the alley's owner, and (b) they can provide evidence that they also have rights over that triangle, then at least you'll know. But that just ain't going to happen! I'll give you a £iver if it does.
(Oh, and - cough - make sure you have solid LegProt in your house insurance...)

Martinez83

I think you’ve just answered your own question with the comment about car gate. To get a car in the back, you’d need a hard surface so as not to damage your land,  and room to get the vehicle into the space, hence the angled gate. Seems odd to have boundary stones around the concrete pad though. What do these looks like? I’m imagining something substantial, but perhaps they aren’t.

Yes - I knew from the start that the fence was altered to fit the car gate - the issue is that there is no formal evidence when it happened nor that whoever created the plan for deed used the fence shape rather than - presumably- original property boundary.

as for boundary stones - they are very large (2x1 foot) distinct stones surrounding all (not just ours) properties. It’s very substantial feature and as you said - them not being against the fence like everywhere else looks very odd and that’s what has prompted the whole investigation.

Martinez83

ThisIsWeird said:

I know what I would do, especially when all the due diligence you have already conscientiously carried out came to now't. I'd square it, on the pretty overwhelming assumption that it would represent the correct, original, layout. And then let time make the case.

Take a comprehensive series of photos to show the original boundary features, extended concrete slab, and everything else.
Rebuild the fence (or whatever it is) in a permanent manner, as closely matching your existing as possible. 
Collate all the evidence and research you have gathered into a file. And put it away.
In the extremely unlikely event a nosy neighbour challenges you, just point out the facts: the markings of the original boundary, the extent of your concrete slab, and simply state that 'you are returning your physical boundary to its original position, as you no longer require vehicular access'. 
Do not engage in a discussion - do not add that you've looked into this (as that would suggest uncertainty) - just give them a disparaging look, and repeat the mantra. 
Even if someone tried to raise the issue, which they almost certainly won't, just how far would they get? I mean, you've tried all reasonable avenues and came up with now't.
And in the extremely unlikely event that they (a) manage to locate the alley's owner, and (b) they can provide evidence that they also have rights over that triangle, then at least you'll know. But that just ain't going to happen! I'll give you a £iver if it does.
(Oh, and - cough - make sure you have solid LegProt in your house insurance...)

Thanks - I think that’s the only reasonable option which we can do right now. 

Luckily for us - we have good report with the neighbours who - in theory - could feel affected by it so I’m 99% certain that these changes will not create any tension.

Btw, why the comment about legal protection (which we indeed have as part of our insurance)?

ThisIsWeird

Martinez83 said:

ThisIsWeird said:

I know what I would do, especially when all the due diligence you have already conscientiously carried out came to now't. I'd square it, on the pretty overwhelming assumption that it would represent the correct, original, layout. And then let time make the case.

Take a comprehensive series of photos to show the original boundary features, extended concrete slab, and everything else.
Rebuild the fence (or whatever it is) in a permanent manner, as closely matching your existing as possible. 
Collate all the evidence and research you have gathered into a file. And put it away.
In the extremely unlikely event a nosy neighbour challenges you, just point out the facts: the markings of the original boundary, the extent of your concrete slab, and simply state that 'you are returning your physical boundary to its original position, as you no longer require vehicular access'. 
Do not engage in a discussion - do not add that you've looked into this (as that would suggest uncertainty) - just give them a disparaging look, and repeat the mantra. 
Even if someone tried to raise the issue, which they almost certainly won't, just how far would they get? I mean, you've tried all reasonable avenues and came up with now't.
And in the extremely unlikely event that they (a) manage to locate the alley's owner, and (b) they can provide evidence that they also have rights over that triangle, then at least you'll know. But that just ain't going to happen! I'll give you a £iver if it does.
(Oh, and - cough - make sure you have solid LegProt in your house insurance...)

Thanks - I think that’s the only reasonable option which we can do right now. 

Luckily for us - we have good report with the neighbours who - in theory - could feel affected by it so I’m 99% certain that these changes will not create any tension.

Btw, why the comment about legal protection (which we indeed have as part of our insurance)?

Pleased you already have LegProt. I always recommend folk have this, and check it's comprehensive (I changed insurers last month on renewal, and ensured it had LP. I looked at what was covered only afterwards, and discovered it didn't include neighbourly disputes or boundaries... A £25 addition ensured this was included, but I could have been in deep poo as my neighb is a c-nut.)

In your case, should a busybody even try anything, you should at least have solid advice available to you, and ideally actual cover to defend a case. It's security.

When you think about it, tho', if someone questions it, you reply matter of fact as I suggested. It is then up to them - should they be bizarrely inclined - to do all the chasing, investigating, and proving. Only a psycho would do this.