Property Boundary Enquiry

eddddy

As already discussed, the easiest route might be to move the fence, and see if anyone complains that you've encroached on their land.

And if they do, you'll know who the land owner is (and you can ask to see their deeds).

Or when you eventually sell in 3 or 5 or 8 years time - say to the buyer "The fence has been there for 3 or 5 or 8 years, and nobody has complained. But bear in mind that there's a remote possibility that somebody will turn up, and tell you to move the fence back."

(Perhaps a more likely issue might be a "busy-body neighbour" deciding they want to have a go at you for moving the fence - even though they don't own the land.)

Section62

Martinez83 said:

Absolutely - however in our neighbourhood only our property has this angled feature.

Although that might indicate your physical boundary feature is wrong, it doesn't prove it to be so.  The shape of someone else's garden isn't proof yours should be the same.

Martinez83 said:

Plus as mentioned before - the original survey maps did indeed shown our boundary as square. So essentially someone decided to change the original fence and its shape followed through to the formal plans. Also - what would be the point of the property boundary stones - if property was angled since day one, wouldn’t the stones follow its shape like everywhere else?

OS maps aren't that accurate.  The Land Registry maps typically just show 'general boundaries' based on OS mapping. Old maps showing the corner being square aren't necessarily proof that the true boundary should be square.

Martinez83 said:

But if the road belongs to someone the there should be records of that, right? So if LR / Council don’t have this information then how am I supposed to resolve that ambiguity ? Shouldn’t this information be available to them in same fashion as property deeds?

There may be a record sitting in a solicitor's vault somewhere, or the record may have been destroyed.  It doesn't mean the land isn't owned by someone (or something) - just that there is no (currently) available proof of who or what owns the land.

Property deeds were traditionally kept by the landowner (or their mortgage company) and not something the local council would hold (other than for their own land).  AFAIK the LR wouldn't have copies unless the land had been registered at some point in the past.

In practical terms, you could either start a search through records trying to establish who the owner was (but you may never get an answer), or you could move your physical boundary and see if anyone complains.  If someone does complain then you may need to change the boundary back, so if it were me I wouldn't spend a lot of money on a permanent boundary feature on the (possibly) disputed line.  I.e. do something temporary now and only build the new wall when you are confident nobody will challenge you.

Martinez83

user1977 said:

What makes you think the council is relevant here? They're only likely to be the owner if they had originally developed the estate. Even if they maintain the alleyway (do they?) that doesn't mean they own the land.

Are there any clues from your titles about how the land was originally developed / divided? Or old maps etc?

I have incorrectly assumed that anything which is not owned by is or our neighbours will be councils - but as pointed out, it isn’t.

clues - of course - the old maps shows the property boundary as square. And that aligns with what we can see on the physical “ground”. However deed doesn’t replicate that and that’s where the whole issue is.

Martinez83

theoretica said:

Also, even if your property originally owned that land you might need to demonstrate that the boundaries haven't changed -  as that can happen.  How old is the property?  Do you have a trail of deeds and ownership changes back to when it was built?

Very old - about 100 years old. 

And as far as understood - LR has no other deeds available dated before early 90’s which I was very surprised about. If they don’t have it, how am I supposed to get it in the first place?

Bigphil1474

If the land doesn't belong to the council, there's unlikely to be anyone around to complain if you do move the boundary, and even if they do, you just make good. If it was me I'd move it and see what happens. Take a photo every year showing you stood near the area and in 10 years time you'll have evidence that it's been in the new layout for a long time - maybe on your birthday.

user1977

Martinez83 said:

theoretica said:

Also, even if your property originally owned that land you might need to demonstrate that the boundaries haven't changed -  as that can happen.  How old is the property?  Do you have a trail of deeds and ownership changes back to when it was built?

Very old - about 100 years old. 

And as far as understood - LR has no other deeds available dated before early 90’s which I was very surprised about. If they don’t have it, how am I supposed to get it in the first place?

And is it in the middle of buildings developed around the same time? As above, it's likely that it was part of a larger plot of land, the houses were sold off, and the remaining bits are still held by whoever the successors to the original landowner were.

Section62

Bigphil1474 said:

If the land doesn't belong to the council, there's unlikely to be anyone around to complain if you do move the boundary, and even if they do, you just make good. If it was me I'd move it and see what happens. Take a photo every year showing you stood near the area and in 10 years time you'll have evidence that it's been in the new layout for a long time - maybe on your birthday.

Other people with a right to use the alleyway may complain if they feel the change affects them.... or just complain for the fun of it.

Martinez83

And is it in the middle of buildings developed around the same time? As above, it's likely that it was part of a larger plot of land, the houses were sold off, and the remaining bits are still held by whoever the successors to the original landowner were.

Yes - all of the properties look similarly old. 

So your assumption might be correct but how to identify who owns the alleyways if LR itself hasn’t got the records? 

Martinez83

Other people with a right to use the alleyway may complain if they feel the change affects them.... or just complain for the fun of it.

Indeed - this would be my main concern but the change which we want to introduce luckily shouldn’t affect anything whatsoever - the small triangle which I am referring to is solely used by us whilst the rest of the alleyway is fully accessible.

tooldle

Can you provide a drawing of the layout? The concrete plinth makes me wonder if there was something sited their previously,  a grit bin for example. Is it an alleyway or, more common with house of 100 years, a service Lane? When you purchased, did the solicitor provide a pack of documents to you after completion? We received (on our 1904 house) a copy of leases and subsequent freehold purchase and all conveyances, planning documents etc dating back to the first sale. Each of the conveyances had a plan attached. This was how things were done until electronic registration with LR came into being.