EDF Smart Meter not recording separate day/night for Economy 7

Scot_39

The edmi es12b is a 5 port meter and you have all 5 ports connected.

So in that respect looks OK.

The spec doesn't confirm it but the 5th port for the e7 timed switch supply is likely the front thinner cable with the number 5 on it.

https://www.edmi-meters.com/europe/wp-content/uploads/2018/05/ES-12B-Factsheet-English.pdf

It has its own secondary 100A load switch relay so I read that as it should not need an external contactor.  My 4 port e10 meter does.

Both your live switched "5"  and a 2nd neutral from the white Henley block to the left of it are using a lower external diameter cable.  (The two that run off to the left above the Henley block with the green covered earth connection.)
Modern meter tails are double insulated - 2nd layer adds to diameter.

Which would not have been replaced by the meter fitter as a general rule as owners reposibility (*) iirc, and suspect these are what feed your e7 consumer unit. 

(*) See reposibility split suggested e.g. 

https://forum.ovoenergy.com/my-account-140/who-s-responsible-for-what-a-guide-on-who-to-contact-to-help-maintain-each-part-of-your-gas-and-electricity-setup-8628

The meter fitter certainly shouldn't have left anything unsafe.

I am not a domestic electrician (but have electrical background in industry) - so not sure of exact rules and regs in place now for such meter install upgrades - but those smaller physical cables if they were fine before for rated power draw from that consumer unit  - they should be OK now.

There are a few ex meter fitters and actual domestic electricians who might advise differently though - who scan these pages.

Arguably ( and with more space?)  it might have been better for the meter fitter to run DNO fuse matching 16 or 25mm2 flexi tails from the meter / Henley to isolator switches (as above example) and connect the consumer unit tails  - I have those isolators in my meter cabinet - despite 25 mm2 tails on both ends.

Edit : and for longer meter tails over 3m to consumer units - they are often also fuse protected to match cables. 

Which can be true also for new EV charger feeds - which seems a point of contention of whether they can then be  installed in meter cabinets on some forums.

The two common standards for fairly modern install meter tails are 25mm2 and 16mm2  - 16mm2 is OK for 80A fuse , 25mm2 in excess of normal max domestic 100A fuse. 
But typical installs say from 60s upto 90s fuse ratings were often even lower (60A not uncommon) and so even 10mm2 tails were used at one stage.
60A was good for 14KW+ - which is say far more than the 10.2kW my 3 nsh and hw immersion draw as max from 2nd consumer unit. 
And have read even lower main incoming fuse ratings than that existed prior to that 60A period.

Rich_888

lohr500 said:

Does the thinner of the five wires attached to the new meter lead to a separate unit with thicker wires attached to that? It look like you might have an external contactor as suggested by QrizB.

The thinner wire from the new meter should be energised during the off peak period and that should then control a relay handling higher current switching for the off peak circuits.

Alternatively, depending on the current rating of the off peak circuit, the thinner wire might go straight to a separate consumer unit (fuse box in old speak) to supply the off peak circuits. 

It is hard to say without seeing more of the layout.

Either way, it does look as though the meter has been wired for Economy 7.

After a few days now, are you noticing different readings on the meter for day and night rates?

If you scroll through the meter display does it come up with a message similar to "Active tariff rate" with a £ value?
Our smart meter is different, but it shows the active tariff rate and this changes value when the meter switches from peak to off peak rates and vice versa. When scrolling between the Rate 1 and Rate 2 displays, it also has an arrow which points at either the Rate 1 or Rate 2 text to indicate which rate is currently being recorded.   

Thanks for the responses. I can't see exactly where the wires attach inside the flat, but here is a pic of the inside behind the cabinet/meter.

1) The main fuse box with wires coming out the top going up into the ceiling. Looks like a thick wire, thin wire and the yellow/green wire.

2) A small box to the right of the fuse box which is used for turning the power to the flat on/off. This has two thin grey

wires coming out of it on the right of the pic. One runs to my nearest storage heater, the other to the ceiling. I "think" the thin wire from the meter and little white box go to this small box. 

3) The active tariff shows as zero, there is no £ value on any of the screens. I can't see an arrow either.

The readings are different now but since yesterday afternoon rate 2 hasn't moved, only rate 1. Looking at my previous bills this seems wrong if rate 2 is night. Since the meter appeared in my online account I think only rate 1 is being used now. I've had a reply by email from EDF saying they have passed it to their smart team.

I will try putting the storage heater on tonight to see if it is getting any power. 

Rich_888

Sorry about the formatting on my post, copy pasted from notepad, seems to have added a bunch of spaces.

Rich_888

Okay, I just tried the storage heaters and they are coming on now, which is obviously wrong. 

Swipe

Rich_888 said:

Okay, I just tried the storage heaters and they are coming on now, which is obviously wrong. 

Sounds like they've made a right pig's ear of it. I know people shouldn't need to, but interrogating the installer to make sure it's all running as intended is a must for E7 users.

lohr500

How many storage heaters do you have and was the hot water also on the Economy 7 circuit before the new meter was fitted? 

I would have expected that smaller fuse box with the ON/OFF switch to be the fuse box for the Economy 7 circuit so switching it off shouldn't kill power to the whole flat. Does it definitely kill everything when you turn that switch off?

Just a theory here, but if the meter hasn't yet been configured correctly then the "5th wire" (The thinner grey wire on the meter numbered 5) which should only be energised during the off peak period could be permanently energised, hence your storage heaters are getting power during the day. If the meter hasn't received the time data yet as to when the 5th wire should be live, then it could default to being live all the time.

Can you double check the on/off switch on the smaller fuse box to see if it does kill all the power in the flat.

Scot_39

Rich_888 said:

Okay, I just tried the storage heaters and they are coming on now, which is obviously wrong. 

That does not sound good.

My smets1 e10 meter worked as e10 from day 1 - either factory pre configured or at time of install. Do seem to remember him checking it was E10 I needed at the time before fiddling for meter in his van though. The meter fitter was still present when it switched on the hw at the preset 1pm gmt afternoon slot time.


I know smets2 appear to be reconfigurable over the air - so maybe it will still happen.  But Maybe well worth informing them of issue just in case.

It may be saving you or costing you depending on how they are billing you and how your hw vs rest balnce isin summer.

Edit : Oh and possibly switch your hot water manually for a few days until resolves - it could be a good few kWh daily - with higher losses if constantly topping up to 60 on thermostat every few hours.

I know others say the ihds on smets2 gives 2 messages during that linkage process - but with no ihd etc.

There appears no set order of which rate is peak or off peak - as it occassionally goes wrong - e.g. on supplier changes.

My advice is to keep checking total and individual rate registers and check against 1st bill or on line statement as soon as you can see a difference emerging. 

And once they are seperated check morning night which rate accumulates when.

And not as others posting here - where problem ran for months - some over  years.

(I got EOn to check on their system after a few weeks - and bill me out of sequence -  after digital e10 meter and ghen smart e10 meter installed - by providing readings - as wasn't going to wait another x months as on 6 monthly bills at the time.)

Rich_888

lohr500 said:

How many storage heaters do you have and was the hot water also on the Economy 7 circuit before the new meter was fitted? 

I would have expected that smaller fuse box with the ON/OFF switch to be the fuse box for the Economy 7 circuit so switching it off shouldn't kill power to the whole flat. Does it definitely kill everything when you turn that switch off?

Just a theory here, but if the meter hasn't yet been configured correctly then the "5th wire" (The thinner grey wire on the meter numbered 5) which should only be energised during the off peak period could be permanently energised, hence your storage heaters are getting power during the day. If the meter hasn't received the time data yet as to when the 5th wire should be live, then it could default to being live all the time.

Can you double check the on/off switch on the smaller fuse box to see if it does kill all the power in the flat.

I have 3 (I tried 2, both came on), hot water has a separate timer. 

Sorry my mistake, you are correct about the switch, it does not kill the power to the flat, it must be the E7. I think you might be right about the configuration. 

Rich_888

Scot_39 said:

Rich_888 said:

Okay, I just tried the storage heaters and they are coming on now, which is obviously wrong. 

That does not sound good.

My smets1 e10 meter worked as e10 from day 1 - either factory pre configured or at time of install. Do seem to remember him checking it was E10 I needed at the time before fiddling for meter in his van though. The meter fitter was still present when it switched on the hw at the preset 1pm gmt afternoon slot time.


I know smets2 appear to be reconfigurable over the air - so maybe it will still happen.  But Maybe well worth informing them of issue just in case.

It may be saving you or costing you depending on how they are billing you and how your hw vs rest balnce isin summer.

I know others say the ihds on smets2 gives 2 messages during that linkage process - but with no ihd etc.

There appears no set order of which rate is peak or off peak - as it occassionally goes wrong - e.g. on supplier changes.

My advice is to keep checking total and individual rate registers and check against 1st bill or on line statement as soon as you can see a difference emerging. 

And once they are seperated check morning night which rate accumulates when.

And not as others posting here - where problem ran for months - some over  years.

(I got EOn to check on their system after a few weeks - and bill me out of sequence -  after digital e10 meter and ghen smart e10 meter installed - by providing readings - as wasn't going to wait another x months as on 6 monthly bills at the time.)

Thanks. I have an email thread with them that I keep updating, but will follow up with a call as it's pretty clear something is wrong now. I am checking the meter 2-3 times daily at the moment. The billing does concern me as my usage isn't being recorded correctly, so I don't know how that is going to work. Next bill is the middle of next month.

It's starting to look like the meter isn't configured correctly.

Scot_39

The meter specs are very flexible - and as above at least some of them are regularly changed over the air.

And even the alcs timings can be forthe switched output from some posts.

As above it may default to permanently on - that way you still get to use timed devices.

But that's no good if charged at e7 premium peak rate.

Is the online billing showing a SR tariff, or one of the e7.

In theory it may be possible for them to correct if pull 1/2 hourly readings.

If not maybe they will make a good will gesture - if pushed.

But even on e10 right now- my usage is c50:50 so wouldn't be panicking - until heating needed.  When off peak jumps over 80% in mild winter, over90 in coldest.