Quick questions re Post #4 - apologies in advance

Stuckupahill

Hi

I’ve read through the Newbies thread a few times but I’m clearly a slow learner and still a little confused about a couple of things.

I’ve searched around to try and find the answers but I’m at information overload right now.

Could someone please take a minute to help me out….would really appreciate it.

 

Scenario – My partner regularly visits a GLL leisure centre and has to key in the registration number at reception. Usually there is no problem.

A PCN arrived in the post following one of the visits – my partner suspects he made a mistake keying in the registration number.

The PCN is dated more than a month ago.

There are two pics showing the car going into and out of the car park. Can’t see the driver in either.

We didn’t open the PCN at first as it looked like junk mail. I spotted it after we returned from holiday. Last week we had the Debt Recovery Plus letter… 

My questions are:

1 Does the advice in post #4 mean ignore both the DRP letter and the original PCN – so in other words do nothing at all. Or does it mean ignore the DRP but continue to appeal the PCN?

2 If the latter, are we still at Plan A more than a month on?

2 I don’t know who owns the car park – GLL presumably. (Hard to know without a Land Registry search). Do we appeal to GLL or Gemini or both?

3 Do we use this one for Gemini - TEMPLATE ''ONE SIZE FITS ALL'' FIRST APPEAL THAT DOESN'T SAY WHO WAS DRIVING: I dispute your 'parking charge'…

4 I won’t go into details here but my partner visits the centre for work-based reason. If we had opened the PCN within the 14-day appeal period I’m pretty certain it would have been cancelled. We’ve got some evidence confirming why he uses the car park, a judge would be sympathetic if it ever went that far, but including that will obviously identify the driver. Should we include that in letter to GLL or “evidence” to Gemini.

5 We’ve not contacted anyone so far and I’m wondering about putting together something like this. Possibly the easiest way to deal with it?  https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/6250564/debt-recovery-plus-for-unpaid-parking-charge-no-previous-notification-or-ticket/p3

6 Apologies for the newbie questions but there’s just so much info to take on. My partner is finding it quite stressful and I’d rather get it cancelled rather than do nothing if possible.

Thanks to everyone who contributes to the forum

Stuck

B789

Welcome. Plan A is never too late. If your partner was visiting for work reasons then ask the business to get the PCN cancelled. If the business is not the company that contracted the PPC, then try the landowner or managing agent.

As this has now gone to debt recovery stage, it is very unlikely that the PPC will let you appeal as per Plan B. You can safely ignore the debt collectors. As you are too late for Plan B appeal, you are also probably too late for the Plan C appeal.

You will just have to weather the storm of useless debt collector letters and wait for a claim. Keep trying to find out the landowner and Plan A. Never too late for Plan A.

fisherjim

If there is a keypad in the leisure centre that is the place to start with plan A see what they say.

Stuckupahill

B789 said:

Welcome. Plan A is never too late. If your partner was visiting for work reasons then ask the business to get the PCN cancelled. If the business is not the company that contracted the PPC, then try the landowner or managing agent.

fisherjim said:

If there is a keypad in the leisure centre that is the place to start with plan A see what they say.

Thanks for your replies, though I'm more confused now tbh....

I thought Plan A was - Contact Gemini with the  TEMPLATE ''ONE SIZE FITS ALL'' FIRST APPEAL THAT DOESN'T SAY WHO WAS DRIVING: I dispute your 'parking charge'…

But you seem to suggest Plan A is - Contact Leisure Centre owners (the business) explaining what happened - including evidence, mitigation (therefore identifying the driver). Personally it seems more sensible to do that if it's not too late.

My partner is a carer who takes a severely disabled person swimming. They go every week. It can be a stressful situation. 
The leisure centre staff seemed to think it would be cancelled on appeal, but they didn't know the PCN was issued over a month ago. They even let my partner take a screenshot of the disabled person's membership details.
Other evidence is a letter from my partner's company confirming why he was there.

Thanks again

(still) Stuck

KeithP

Stuckupahill said:

I thought Plan A was - Contact Gemini with the  TEMPLATE ''ONE SIZE FITS ALL'' FIRST APPEAL THAT DOESN'T SAY WHO WAS DRIVING: I dispute your 'parking charge'…

The opening post of the NEWBIES thread clearly states...

That same post of the NEWBIES thread continues with...

Stuckupahill

OK thanks. I've been reading so many posts and info on here my eyes are glazing over.....
So contact GLL - leisure centre operators - and explain what happened and give them supporting evidence mentioned....
Does it matter if we identify the driver to GLL? (I keep seeing advice not to say who was driving)
Do we just email their customer services? [email protected]
Sorry if I'm being thick here but it's late, I'm really tired and fed up trying to make sense of all this...
As ever appreciate any help. 
(Hopefully becoming un)Stuck

Coupon-mad

Just email the CS of the landowners and ignore the DRP letters.

Please please (please) do this and give the Government your evidence and tell them how receiving extortionate 3 figure demands feels:

https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/6471857/please-reply-to-question-4-of-the-governments-call-for-evidence-re-the-level-of-parking-charges

It's one question to be answered (please make it clear in the subject line which question you are attaching evidence for. What to put is in that link.

Help us to change the law...

B789

Plan A: Complain to the landowner and get your MP to intervene.
Plan B: Appeal to the PPC
Plan C: Secondary appeal service
Plan Get a judge to decide whether you have a debt or not.

Stuckupahill

Hi again,

Thanks for the responses so far and the link to the Gov call for evidence which we've responded to.

Sadly in our own case we're no further forward.

* The local council, which we think owns the car park, doesn't want to know.
* GLL, which operates the Leisure Centre, won't help because we've missed the appeal window and their customer services told us to "just pay the fine"...so much for their core values!  https://www.better.org.uk/who-we-are/social-enterprise

In the meantime my partner has received a second PCN from the same location for a similar swimming session last month....presumably making an error again keying in the registration number.

We're still within the 21-day appeal limit for the 2nd PCN so able to go through the Gemini appeals process.

Would appreciate any advice on how to proceed...

Do we: 
Appeal the 2nd PCN with Gemini and also reference the first one - to try and get them to cancel them both?
Appeal the 2nd PCN with Gemini, but not mention the first? If so, is there a next step for the first or do we just wait for court papers?
I'm not sure how we would appeal without explaining why my partner was there and giving evidence (letter from employer) - but that would identify my partner as the driver - is that an issue?

If the first ticket does go all the way to court, wouldn't it look better if we have at least contacted Gemini to try to get them to cancel it (and thus not waste the court's valuable time etc....) 

My partner isn't keen on having the threat of court action....how likely is Gemini to take it that far. 

Sorry again for the questions. As I pointed out in the email to the Gov Call for Evidence, my partner earns just above the minimum wage and £170 is more than two days pay...the whole thing is ridiculous.

Thanks

Stuck

Coupon-mad

I'm so glad to read that you have used your case as evidence for the Government to show them what people are suffering at the hands of parking firms and debt collectors.

I say your partner should appeal, admit to driving and attach proof of patronage of the business.  Refer also to the older PCN and state that he did key in his VRM each time and thinks this was either:

(a) a failure or buffering of Gemini's system if they have no similar VRM recorded, or

(b). a 'minor keying error' at best.  Maybe a single digit error.

And under the Pre-Action protocol, Gemini are put to proof of which it was, ON BOTH DATES (Two PCNs) by supplying a partially-redacted VRM exempt list that covers other full VRMs but shows the keying input made on the two dates in question, that must match or be similar to this VRM. 

Given that the IPC's Will Hurley stated that "no motorist should be marginalised" due to a mere typo, and the BPA Code (that Gemini recently forum-shopped to avoid) actually states that minor keying errors should see the PCN cancelled, the appellant expects cancellation of both PCN refs xxxxxxxx and xxxxxxxx.  This is expected because that's what the DLUHC's new statutory Code says about keying errors, and the IPC has gone on record supporting the Code, a year ago.  The clause re 'keying errors' being always cancelled (because it is unfair to punish people for a typo) has not been challenged and motorists reasonably expect operators to honour it.

Stuckupahill

Thanks v much for that. Will let you know how it goes...