Divorce - Honesty is not the best policy?

SteveVy

Hi Folks,

I was wondering if you could help, I am going through a very bad divorce with a narcissistic  abusive ex wife. We have finally exchanged voulantry Form E's and whilst I've been fully honest with mine she has lied on every page. It's clear she has funelled money to different accounts and people to hide her assets but I dont know how I will proove this?

The section on personal possesions has really upset me, I gave her many items above £500 including a £15,000 Watch, various necklaces, earrings and other jewellery . She has claimed she has NONE of these. When we seperated she took all the jewellery with her.

How can I proove she has it and I don't have it?

I am beginning to regret being so honest on my FORM E...and now think I wish I lied and said I didn't have any personal possesions over £500 like she did. Some of these possesions she gifted to me so I know she will want these back!

Any advice?

RAS

Were the gifts recent enough to show up on credit or debit card statements? Or be listed on insurance documents?

SteveVy

Yes I have all the recipents and invoices and insurance policy

tightauldgit

Having been through the process I would say honesty is not always the best policy but it can backfire on you if you get caught in a lie to the court. 

The question on all of these things is generally a) is it worth arguing about and b) what can you prove? 

1. When you say 'it's clear she's funnelled money to different accounts and other people' what do you mean? Are there transactions showing to people and accounts in her bank statements? If so then you ask her to explain the transactions and provide details of the accounts if they are in her name. If you just mean that she has less money than you think she should have then that's a different situation. 

2. With regards the gifts - you can certainly ask. If you know you gave her a £15k watch then ask her to account for it. Bear in mind though for these things that she can simply say 'its been lost' or 'i broke it' or  'i gave it to my sister as a gift' or any other handy explanation for why she no longer has it. 

You need to consider how significant the sums being discussed are, what impact they are likely to have on the settlement, what's worth arguing about and what a court will consider worth spending time on. You can certainly ask her to elaborate on her Form E and point out what you consider to be missing but bear in mind you should be trying to come to a settlement during the process so both sides need to compromise rather than getting fixed on specific issues. 

Malthusian

What does your solicitor think?

goled

Malthusian said:

What does your solicitor think?

I also think it is important to ask a solicitor. I'm sure, you rea not the first who faced such a situation.

T.T.D

I wouldn’t be focused on Watches and Jewellery that’s gifted, . You realise if you gift something you relinquish ownership unless you can provide some sort of contract you had such as a text saying “if we divorce that Rolex comes with me” and an acknowledgment of such upon when you gifted it or forms part of a sort of pre marital agreement.

 You don’t get it back or it’s value in the event of a separation or divorce. It’s a Watch bought for 15k but not necessarily worth 15k and courts recognise that during the course of a marriage or relationship people can buy lavish gifts for each other that appreciate or depreciate in value and that there is no automatic refund upon divorce.

The moving of money to different accounts is pretty common tactic, if your being bled dry then go to the bank immediately and make them change the account so that any transaction withdrawal etc has BOTH of your signatures to agree and approve a transaction.

Money that’s been “taken” already if you can prove she took it hid it you can try and get some of it recovered when you sell the house or cars or a judgement to state she’s taken her fair share early and for it to deduct from any financial settlement order award. Just have it all documented in readiness. 

tightauldgit

T.T.D said:

I wouldn’t be focused on Watches and Jewellery that’s gifted, . You realise if you gift something you relinquish ownership unless you can provide some sort of contract you had such as a text saying “if we divorce that Rolex comes with me” and an acknowledgment of such upon when you gifted it or forms part of a sort of pre marital agreement.

 You don’t get it back or it’s value in the event of a separation or divorce. It’s a Watch bought for 15k but not necessarily worth 15k and courts recognise that during the course of a marriage or relationship people can buy lavish gifts for each other that appreciate or depreciate in value and that there is no automatic refund upon divorce.

The moving of money to different accounts is pretty common tactic, if your being bled dry then go to the bank immediately and make them change the account so that any transaction withdrawal etc has BOTH of your signatures to agree and approve a transaction.

Money that’s been “taken” already if you can prove she took it hid it you can try and get some of it recovered when you sell the house or cars or a judgement to state she’s taken her fair share early and for it to deduct from any financial settlement order award. Just have it all documented in readiness. 

While a gift means you relinquish ownership, it's an asset she owns and should be considered part of the marital asset pot. No different than if she owned a car or a property. You can't ask for it back but you're certainly entitled to ask for half of it's value in the settlement or rather for the settlement to be adjusted to reflect it's value. 

Exodi

T.T.D said:

I wouldn’t be focused on Watches and Jewellery that’s gifted, . You realise if you gift something you relinquish ownership unless you can provide some sort of contract you had such as a text saying “if we divorce that Rolex comes with me” and an acknowledgment of such upon when you gifted it or forms part of a sort of pre marital agreement.

 You don’t get it back or it’s value in the event of a separation or divorce. It’s a Watch bought for 15k but not necessarily worth 15k and courts recognise that during the course of a marriage or relationship people can buy lavish gifts for each other that appreciate or depreciate in value and that there is no automatic refund upon divorce.

To give respect to the OP, I don't think they've suggested any of what you're saying they have.

Gifts are assets, assets are to be disclosed as part of divorce proceedings. The OP has disclosed the gifts he received.

No-one is expecting the court to give the husband back a diamond ring and designer handbag, nor for the wife to get back a sports car and set of golf clubs - it's to assess the overall matrimonial pot to ensure both parties realise a fair split of the total assets.

To the OP specifically, unfortunately, all's fair in love and war.

I'd expect it's relatively common for people to 'forget' things like this in divorce proceedings. Understandably it's disappointing that you may effectively get punished for telling the truth (as I'd imagine it will be pretty hard to prove she still has any of these gifts now - and even if you asked I expect she'd have unfortunately misplaced all of them (and may conveniently find them again after the divorce)), life is not fair unfortunately.

SteveVy

Thanks for all the comments, I think the point I was trying to get across is everything I have gifted her she denies ever having....everything she has gifted me I stupidly wrote down on my Form E as per my solicitors advise so I have admitted to having these in my possesions. She now wants all of these gifts back but everything I have given her has disappeared...

tightauldgit

SteveVy said:

Thanks for all the comments, I think the point I was trying to get across is everything I have gifted her she denies ever having....everything she has gifted me I stupidly wrote down on my Form E as per my solicitors advise so I have admitted to having these in my possesions. She now wants all of these gifts back but everything I have given her has disappeared...

She's not entitled to 'all these gifts back' as we have explained. Of course if you ask a solicitor then they will tell you to be honest on the form and declare everything - that's their job. However, as far as I can tell there is no downside to not declaring things (unless you are completely egregious) as a) it's very difficult to prove you have them b) worst case if it is proved you just say 'oh yes I forgot about that' and add it. 

if you were actively trying to squirrel away large sums of money or forgot to declare a house or something then it probably would be more serious but forgetting to declare a piece of jewellery on a form is probably not going to see you charged with contempt. 

One of the more frustrating things I found with the process was that not complying with the rules seemed to be overlooked but there's no point getting upset about it - simply flag up anything significant that you feel has not been declared as part of the questionnaire process and let them respond.  Also just take whatever she 'wants' with a pinch of salt, it's not up to her to decide that's what the court is for and the court will follow the law.