Energy Supplier

Gerry1

If one reading is huge and the other is a tiddler, it might well explain why the rates have been transposed.

Perhaps Octopus simply couldn't believe anyone would choose to run daytime heating on the most expensive rate available, hence they assumed that NSHs were in use overnight?

Insisting on getting the Ombudsman to help you prise open a can of worms might just be interesting...🪱

QrizB

I just hope that we haven't scared them away. I'd like to hear more about their dispute and how it gets resolved.

Scot_39

QrizB said:

Gerry1 said:

ChoppersPatch said:

Gerry1 said:

Seems that your 'Thermal Radiators' are just panel heaters that use day rate electricity, so it's just about the most expensive heating you can possibly have.

Have you done the sums to see whether Economy 7 works out more expensive overall than single rate?

The radiators are fine and we now have control of when we require heating. 

Oh dear...

IMHO it was huge mistake to get rid of storage heaters.

You'd also have control of your heating if you burned £20 notes in the fireplace.  That's the only thing more expensive than running panel heaters on the daytime Economy 7 rate, which will be even more expensive than the single rate.

Not trying to point a finger, just warning anyone else against thinking that shiny new panel heaters are better than boring old storage heaters.

Is this a good time to share the link to my calculations?

https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/comment/78557202/#Comment_78557202

At the July cap, in my region, the comparative costs for 10MWh of heat were:

Gas: £1142/yr

E7 NSH: £1535/yr

Single-rate panel heaters: £3030/yr

E7 daytime rate panel heaters: £3870/yr.

Just a comment / observation rather than a criticism - but it's important people reading really realise that's only heat. 

And only the unit kWh costs of getting it.

And notice your link has an e7 - changed to e7 composite rate panel figure too, which in last few sets reduces their costs in fact slightly cheaper than SR basis. 
For example the E7 Fischer £2889, not £3030 for E7 SR   and not £3870 above - included in the linked post. Which might surprise others.

But do sometimes think this type of comparison focuses users too much on raw off peak rates.

I have e10, my annual off peak use c75%.

So in reality - using c20p and c40p for simplicity vs 30p for SR (all within p or so of July rates)  - although strictly obviously my  my hw and nsh heaters only use 20p off peak rate electricity.

But even just in terms of unit costs, I cannot get the 20p on 75% off peak without paying the 40p peak on the 25%.  And I wouldn't pay the premium if wasnt using rest for heat.  So my average unit rate is 25p.

And that 5p is if you like to my mind an integral / essential / unavoidable part of the cost of getting the 20p off peak rate - unless use an exceptionally high off peak mix, the day rate matters - but variable by a users mix. 

So I do understand why it's not easy to include in the table comparison.

Whereas a gas consumer pays no such peak rate penalty on their other use electric consumption - which is non trivial when it comes to tdcv 2900 soon 2700 levels they are allowed - c£270 pa.

But then I don't use 2700 kWh peak electric - or pay £100+ gas SC either - or £150-200 boiler servicing that many might etc - directly or as a tennant via rent etc - so it all gets really messy really quickly.

But I would perhaps tend to choose to always use my own mix 25p rather 20p against electric SR pricing comparison  even just for my heating costs.

But as tabled, its simpler, because it removes the dependency on users day/night use splits and other variables / costs.

But as with anything, needs understanding.

As you can tell I clearly do wonder if its entirely fair to look at heating, simple off peak unit rate figures in such isolation.

And in particular if it paints simple e7 off peak rate based figures in too flattering a light.

Even if still higher than gas or say an ashp with nominal yearly  cop of say a guess 2.5-3 for heat and hw.


Ps that's a very long thread now - couldn't quickly find the basis for gas efficiency etc the prices seem about 50% higher than 10000 units.

QrizB

I accept all the above. My goal was to produce a less-worse illustration of the sort of sums that would be involved.

Scot_39 said:

PS that's a very long thread now - couldn't quickly find the basis for gas efficiency etc the prices seem about 50% higher than 10000 units.

It's in the last post on the previous page. Fischer (the original topic of the thread) commissioned the BRE to study the performance of their heaters vs. basic SHs, HHR SHs and a gas boiler.

The BRE were very efficient and built a simulated flat within an environmental chamber for the tests.

The outcome was that all three forms of electrical heating consumed roughly the same amount of electricity, but the gas boiler used 50% more gross kWh of gas. I've used that factor consistently whenever I've updated the thread.

I'm sure we can all argue that gas boilers should be more efficient than that, but the BRE report found what it did.

The link to the report in that thread is broken, but it's now available from here:

https://fischerfutureheat.com/app/uploads/2022/05/BRE-Test-Report.pdf

Scot_39

QrizB said:

I accept all the above. My goal was to produce a less-worse illustration of the sort of sums that would be involved.

Scot_39 said:

PS that's a very long thread now - couldn't quickly find the basis for gas efficiency etc the prices seem about 50% higher than 10000 units.

It's in the last post on the previous page. Fischer (the original topic of the thread) commissioned the BRE to study the performance of their heaters vs. basic SHs, HHR SHs and a gas boiler.

The BRE were very efficient and built a simulated flat within an environmental chamber for the tests.

The outcome was that all three forms of electrical heating consumed roughly the same amount of electricity, but the gas boiler used 50% more gross kWh of gas. I've used that factor consistently whenever I've updated the thread.

I'm sure we can all argue that gas boilers should be more efficient than that, but the BRE report found what it did.

The link to the report in that thread is broken, but it's now available from here:

https://fischerfutureheat.com/app/uploads/2022/05/BRE-Test-Report.pdf

Thanks / sorry - I jumped back several pages - I guess I should have searched your posts.

(Can you do that just within 1 thread ?)

Wow - I thought I was triggering possible abuse by gas posters here doing some estimates using 85% and then a more pessimistic 75% efficiency - using 50% more means a not to dissimalar I guess 67% - so maybe wasn't so far off. Given often see 90% plus quoted just for condensing combi's in the "optimal" operational zone.

markin

If they asked you to take photo 3-5 hrs apart too prove what meter/rate is going up it would likely have failed if your using the heaters as you need in the day time.

What are the readings for the last 12 months - 3 years?

Do you have a smart meter? 

If you can't convince Octopus your very unlikely to get any other company to agree.

QrizB

Scot_39 said:

Wow - I thought I was triggering possible abuse by gas posters here doing some estimates using 85% and then a more pessimistic 75% efficiency - using 50% more means a not to dissimalar I guess 67% - so maybe wasn't so far off. Given often see 90% plus quoted just for condensing combi's in the "optimal" operational zone.

Way off topic here, and I do hope @ChoppersPatch comes back to this thread to continue the discussion.

But ... I don't think the BRE took any particular efforts to optimise the gas boiler. It was just there as a source of heat for a comparative study (which seemed mostly focused on "keeping temperatures steady" as that's what Fischer paid them to look at, rather than efficiency).

So we might reasonably assume it was running an 85C flow temperature, not condensing, and short cycling (since they were using a 12kW boiler to drive ~3kW of radiators at an average power of under 2kW, and the test structure was a two-room, 17 sq. m. "apartment" rather than a complete house). I'm not too surprised it was only 67% efficient.

ChoppersPatch

Wowser!! I'm just reading some of these comments. What do people do all day? Spend their time writing novels of gobbledegook!!
I asked a simple question at the start.
I'll go back to enjoying my holidays and retirement and leave you lot to it!!🤣🤣🤣
Over and out (and goodbye)

GingerTim

You mean 'people trying to offer advice in good faith to help you', I'm sure.

And enjoying your retirement and paying much more in electricity than you need to, of course. 

EssexHebridean

QrizB said:

Gerry1 said:

ChoppersPatch said:

Gerry1 said:

Seems that your 'Thermal Radiators' are just panel heaters that use day rate electricity, so it's just about the most expensive heating you can possibly have.

Have you done the sums to see whether Economy 7 works out more expensive overall than single rate?

The radiators are fine and we now have control of when we require heating. 

Oh dear...

IMHO it was huge mistake to get rid of storage heaters.

You'd also have control of your heating if you burned £20 notes in the fireplace.  That's the only thing more expensive than running panel heaters on the daytime Economy 7 rate, which will be even more expensive than the single rate.

Not trying to point a finger, just warning anyone else against thinking that shiny new panel heaters are better than boring old storage heaters.

Is this a good time to share the link to my calculations?

https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/comment/78557202/#Comment_78557202

At the July cap, in my region, the comparative costs for 10MWh of heat were:

Gas: £1142/yr

E7 NSH: £1535/yr

Single-rate panel heaters: £3030/yr

E7 daytime rate panel heaters: £3870/yr.

A couple of days after we moved out, the buyer of our old flat contacted the agent saying that she "couldn't make the heating work" - so I went back with a bit of a tutorial on how NSH's work, how we used them, and the water heating etc. I finished it up with a note that if she didn't want to cost her future tenants an awful lot of money she should resist the temptation to rip out all the NSHs and replace with panel heaters. Whether she will take notice or not I have no idea, but the calculations above really show why it's such a poor idea don't they! (Not least because I bet if she DOES change the heaters, she won't also change the electricity set-up!)