Charges for connecting to "maritime" networks without consent - how do they get away with this?

Bricks

It looks like you can purchase packages if you actually want to use these kinds of networks, if for example you are a cruise passenger. These can give us an idea of what price such services can be sold at, and still make a profit.

For example here are some packages - $100 for 1GB of data (over 30 days). $10 for each extra 100MB.

So what does that work out per MB?

$100 / 1000 = $0.10 per MB (if you use all of your allowance in 30 days)

$10 / 100 = $0.10 per additional MB beyond that allowance

If AT&T can sell a package to use data on a ship based network that works out at about 8p per MB, then does it seem plausible that the £6 per MB that I am charged via 3 mobile (ie. 75 times as much) can mostly be attributed to the actual cost of the service?

matelodave

You do seem to be flogging this one to death.

In the end, the company can charge whatever they like and its up to you to decide whether you want to avail yourself of the service.

You should just accept that you failed to read the small print and use that as a lesson for the future.

Bricks

matelodave said:

You do seem to be flogging this one to death.

In the end, the company can charge whatever they like and its up to you to decide whether you want to avail yourself of the service.

You should just accept that you failed to read the small print and use that as a lesson for the future.

That they can charge what they like is the problem.

I've learnt to watch out for this in the future, sure.

But I'll be making sure I get a refund from my provider because they failed to give me reasonable warning.

That no-one else here seems to think that the situation is unfair is not a problem for me personally. Only for those who continue to get caught by this in the future, and are less able to afford or challenge the costs than I am.

Mobile operators and ferry companies both could do more to protect people from inadvertently getting charged for something they don't need and didn't ask for or knowingly agree to.

k12479

Bricks said:

It looks like you can purchase packages if you actually want to use these kinds of networks, if for example you are a cruise passenger. These can give us an idea of what price such services can be sold at, and still make a profit.

For example here are some packages - $100 for 1GB of data (over 30 days). $10 for each extra 100MB.

So what does that work out per MB?

$100 / 1000 = $0.10 per MB (if you use all of your allowance in 30 days)

$10 / 100 = $0.10 per additional MB beyond that allowance

If AT&T can sell a package to use data on a ship based network that works out at about 8p per MB, then does it seem plausible that the £6 per MB that I am charged via 3 mobile (ie. 75 times as much) can mostly be attributed to the actual cost of the service?

Not really comparable.

A random cruise ship from AT&T's list, the Carnival Mardi Gras, accommodates 6,500 passengers. A random Irish Ferries ship, the MV Ulysses, accommodates 1,938. The former typically does 7-day cruises, the latter about 3 hours.

The data usage pattern, and therefore the business models, will be different. The fact that only one P&O ferry is on the list - one that does their longest Hull-Rotterdam route, suggests as much.

Bricks

The business models will be different for sure. And I have some idea what the business model is on the Ulysses.

The question is whether the operating costs are so different. Is it plausible that the operating costs (per user or otherwise) on the Hull to Rotterdam ferry are 1/75th of those on the Holyhead to Dublin one?

k12479

1/75th? Maybe, maybe not.

Holyhead-Dublin takes 3.5 hours, Hull-Rotterdam 12 hours. The shorter the trip, the fewer people likely willing to pay for data so the price would need to be higher to cover fixed costs.

A MB on Ulysses will cost £6, on Pride of Hull it will cost...$100. 2 MB on Ulysses will cost £12, on Pride of Hull $100. 1/75th is a simplistic calculation.

Neil_Jones

Bricks said:

But I'll be making sure I get a refund from my provider because they failed to give me reasonable warning.

That no-one else here seems to think that the situation is unfair is not a problem for me personally. Only for those who continue to get caught by this in the future, and are less able to afford or challenge the costs than I am.

Mobile operators and ferry companies both could do more to protect people from inadvertently getting charged for something they don't need and didn't ask for or knowingly agree to.

What you think should happen and what does happen are two entirely different things.  But that doesn't make it unfair.  Has to be a default position in all scenarios which is always unfair to somebody somewhere.

lohr500

I also seem to be in the minority based on the replies to your original post, but I agree with you Bricks. 

I bet there are hundreds, if not thousands, of mobile phone owners who get caught out by this.

It is OK for those of us who are savvy enough to disable roaming or set zero spend caps, but many people are not that well informed.

As per my earlier reply, there should be more done by the operators of ferry/cruise companies to make it very clear that connecting to a marine mobile service comes at a cost.

Whatever anyone else thinks about it, to me it has a nasty smell of profiteering.    

Bricks

k12479 said:

1/75th? Maybe, maybe not.

Holyhead-Dublin takes 3.5 hours, Hull-Rotterdam 12 hours. The shorter the trip, the fewer people likely willing to pay for data so the price would need to be higher to cover fixed costs.

A MB on Ulysses will cost £6, on Pride of Hull it will cost...$100. 2 MB on Ulysses will cost £12, on Pride of Hull $100. 1/75th is a simplistic calculation.

I don't see any reason to assume fixed costs are high. There will be some kind of thing on the ship that communicates with the satellite. In principle I don't see that it needs to be much different from the kind of thing you can use if you want to set up satellite broadband for a home or business.

What does it cost if I want to set myself up with access to satellite based internet?

A one off cost of about £200 for the hardware and £150 to install it.

£25 per month will get me >10GB of data = <0.25p per MB

£515 per month business plan gives >500GB of data = <0.1p per MB

(Someone tell me if I've got my sums wrong)

Ok, so on the ferry there will be an additional bit of equipment that will broadcast the mobile network across the boat, but I see no reason to assume that's hugely expensive. It'll be a one-off cost.

The point is, once you've installed the equipment, then you're not asking anything different of the satellite network than the home or business user is. The satellites are in the sky already. The evidence is that it's possible to pay for that data at a rate of less than 1p per MB. Essentially the operator of one of these ferry things must be able to bulk buy data for something like 0.1p per MB or less. Then they can sell it on to passengers.

If I'm paying £6 per MB I'm paying 6000 times the likely cost to the provider.

The idea that it's so expensive due to the fundamental cost of providing it is ludicrous.

It's so expensive because they can get away with it.

k12479

Oh come on...you're giving a domestic satellite hardware cost to compare to one that's moving, in inhospitable conditions with capacity for 1000+ people and that a 12 month contract is cheaper per unit than a short-term ad-hoc connection.

Of course there's an element of what they can get away with, exacerbated by limited competition compared to land-based providers for the obvious reason that the market is much smaller. But anything marine, or aeronautical, is more expensive than land-based counterparts for various reasons.