Property purchase. Potential Chimney Issues

Flibbertigibbet4545

Husband and I have found a property we're interested in purchasing. Plan is it will be our long term home for the next 30-40 years.
No offers made or surveys done at this stage but we're pretty sure the chimney breasts are unsupported (husband works in construction and in laws are architects). 
Asked the sellers for more info and it seems like the chimney breast on ground floor were removed in the 60s/70s. Their own survey when they purchased said "that some of the chimney breasts had been removed and that whilst it could not confirm adequate support had been given to the remaining chimney masonry, it noted there were ‘no obvious signs of distress."
Can't say that's left me feeling reassured!

Not sure of best thing to do next
- Do we walk away now?
- Do we offer on the proviso that the sellers get in a structural engineer to certify the safety (obviously not sure they will agree to this)?
- Do we offer and get a full structural survey done, which will very likely say that there are issues, at which point we will have wasted a lot of time and money!

I sadly fear the walking away now might be best but am keen to hear thoughts from anyone who has been through this/any structural engineers or surveyors who might be on the forum.

theartfullodger

If they haven't fallen down in the 50/60 years since they're probably okay.  Likely hidden RSJs.

(You know how people say when looking at some medieval building "gosh didn't they build them well in those days":  The ones done badly fell down years ago).

MultiFuelBurner

As above if it's been like that for 50-60+ years and still no signs of stress then your brain is really just looking for a way out.

It may not be the property for you 👍

That said your partner is in the right industry to price up the work needed if you want to offer less on that basis.

Flibbertigibbet4545

There is a large crack in the living room ceiling (which has a chimney breast above it). Apparently it's just cosmetic. I have no way of knowing if it is or isn't. 
We do really like the property but don't want to set ourselves up for future major problems. 

Section62

theartfullodger said:

If they haven't fallen down in the 50/60 years since they're probably okay.
...

MultiFuelBurner said:

As above if it's been like that for 50-60+ years and still no signs of stress then your brain is really just looking for a way out.

...

If this were true then today's media headlines wouldn't be full of news about schools being closed/needing to be rebuilt.

You don't always get signs before a structure lets go.

stuart45

If your husband is in the construction industry he must know the dangers of an unsupported chimney. 
Sometimes they stay in place for years and don't move. Other times they can start to go when something in the structure changes, such as next door removing theirs, movement in the foundations, heavier traffic outside, work on the main house walls etc. 
If a chimney breast has been removed and is left unsupported, it may never fail, but there is always the potential for it in the future.

Flibbertigibbet4545

stuart45 said:

If your husband is in the construction industry he must know the dangers of an unsupported chimney. 
Sometimes they stay in place for years and don't move. Other times they can start to go when something in the structure changes, such as next door removing theirs, movement in the foundations, heavier traffic outside, work on the main house walls etc. 
If a chimney breast has been removed and is left unsupported, it may never fail, but there is always the potential for it in the future.

Yeah, he's well aware. Hence the concern. Guessing a structural engineer/full structural survey would be able to identify if it is problematic or not. 
Are we within our rights to ask for the seller to pay for an inspection or does it all fall on us with the survey? 

FreeBear

Make on offer on the basis that extra support is required or plan on removing the remaining chimney breasts upstairs along with whats left of the chimney - Would give you a bit more space and an excuse to decorate.

There may be supports in place already for the section of chimney breast that has been removed - It could be a gallows bracket (most Building Control depts don't accept them any more), it might be a stout piece of timber, or it could just be corbelled brickwork. Hopefully, it is an appropriately sized RSJ... You won't know until someone takes a look, but the vendor is unlikely to agree to floorboards being lifted or holes made in the ceiling.

Section62

Flibbertigibbet4545 said:

stuart45 said:

If your husband is in the construction industry he must know the dangers of an unsupported chimney. 
Sometimes they stay in place for years and don't move. Other times they can start to go when something in the structure changes, such as next door removing theirs, movement in the foundations, heavier traffic outside, work on the main house walls etc. 
If a chimney breast has been removed and is left unsupported, it may never fail, but there is always the potential for it in the future.

Yeah, he's well aware. Hence the concern. Guessing a structural engineer/full structural survey would be able to identify if it is problematic or not. 
Are we within our rights to ask for the seller to pay for an inspection or does it all fall on us with the survey? 

The SE/Surveyor would need the base of the remaining chimney 'uncovered' so they can see what support is in place.

I.e. carpets/floorboards/ceilings etc removed to get access.  Before spending more time/money it would be worth asking the vendor if this is something they would accept in principle... as vendors typically say 'no' to the idea of their house being pulled apart.  If they agree in principle then you need to negotiate who organises and/or pays.

stuart45

If it was done in the 70's, there's a fair chance it won't be supported. Up to the mid 60's it would be unusual to remove a chimney breast. In the 70's it became really popular,  and there wasn't really any guidance to the work as it was a new idea. Most of the older bricklayers I worked with said that the tying in to the party walls was enough to hold them up. Even the better firms I worked for got me to corbel the brickwork below as a decorative feature. It was probably in the 80's when Building Control realised the problem and brought in regs.

Doozergirl

The cost of rectifying it and supporting it correctly wouldn't be much in the grand scheme of buying a house.  

It wouldn't stop me buying a house that was otherwise acceptable.  Virtually all houses hold some kind of surprise, some are more obvious than others.  

If you have a construction family, they should be fairly relaxed about the realities of homeownership and the concept of fixing things.  

Just negotiate it off the price of the house.