Parents now needing care, need advice on financial do's and don'ts

[Deleted User]

My parents own their house, and have over 23k in savings. Everything went to pot this year really, my father essentially bed-bound now, and mother with cognitive impairment. Both still reluctant to accept a private care nurse visiting, relying on each other (my dad to do the thinking, and my mum the moving) and me (I live nearby, and visit daily).

We did manage to get LPAs done, so that's a relief. Immediate concerns are getting them to agree to a care nurse coming to help, and paying for it.

My question is more about longer-term planning, and what things I should and shouldn't do, because I've read horror stories.

Specifically:

1. My father has been paying my kids uni fees since 2019, I'm thinking he should stop now, because this could be seen as asset deprivation if local authority care is needed. Or can he continue to do this, given he's just continuing doing something he'd always planned to do, and it was never planned as a way of avoiding care fees.

2. If one parent passes away, should myself and family move in with the other, or move them into our house? Or neither? I've read horror stories about people losing their houses to local authority when things are done wrong. It's important to think about this now though, because the possibility of this impacts decisions the wife and I might make about our own house. We've been thinking of moving across town, and would want to choose a house that had a viable downstairs bedroom and bathroom suitable for an elderly parent. 

I'm happy for their savings and house to go into getting them the best care for these last years, but don't want to lose my own house too or my kids getting chased to pay the local authority what they received in uni fees years ago.

Brie

You don't say what income your parents have singularly or jointly.  This would affect what can and should be done.  Also what happens when, for instance, your father dies?  Does your mom continue to get a pension from him?  (given that traditionally men have better pensions than women).  It would be good to gather this information now while your dad has the ability to help.

£23k in savings is not a lot unless the monthly income is very high.  I'd say the paying for uni, while lovely, isn't affordable anymore.  This is the point where local authorities have a tipping point about paying for any care - whether it's at home or elsewhere.  As long as your parents are on the plus side they do have a bit of choice about where that care takes place.  The fact that dad has paid fees in the past are unlikely to be a problem with the LA given that it was a specific thing above his normal living costs and has/will stop when his & mom's needs have increased and become more expensive.  But only the council can say for sure.

As for someone moving in to your parent's house....first off who?  And what would they do?  Would it be a family member (young adult?) for free rent etc in exchange for being there 24/7?  Frankly that's not fair on almost anyone and not long term sustainable.  On the other hand having a paid carer move in might be a possibility - if there's the money to pay.  And it can't be 24/7 as that's against employment law.  But something to investigate.  

There's the possibility of selling their house and yours and setting up together (which is what we did).  Again there can be problems.  The LA might consider this deprivation of assets if they have to pay for care if mom/dad doesn't have actual money to pay.  If they go down this route they might decide that you should be made homeless due to the LA needing to cash in on the property to pay for things.  Apparently this is possible if neither you or your wife is over 60 at the time of the application for LA to pay.  If either of you are over 60 they can't make you homeless but can put a lien on the property up to the amount that your parent(s) might have invested in it.  This isn't any issue until the savings are reduced to below the designated amount (currently about £23k) so any savings would be used up as well as any income the parent has.  

When a parent is being cared for in your home it is quite alright to have them pay towards their upkeep.  I had arranged that a set amount was sent by standing order from MiL's account to ours to pay towards food, utilities, and sherry!  We also had arranged a agency carer (private, not social services/LA) to come and help 3 hours once a week so MiL had a shower, and her area of the house cleaned, tidied.  It also meant that there was a 3 hours period when we (supposedly) didn't need to be at home as otherwise it was pretty non stop.  No holidays alone for a few years as we couldn't get respite care of any sort (despite promises) and couldn't leave her alone for more than very short periods.  Ok to go to the shops but an evening out was rarely possible.  

All of this last bit sounds a bit dismal but it wasn't really.  My MiL was a funny (in the right way) person and rarely was a problem but she definitely needed help.  If we had left her in her flat she would have tired us out perhaps sooner given that we were starting to get calls at 2 am and my OH had to go across town to see her a couple of times a day.  She had started to lose the ability to cook for herself and would do weird things like run the empty microwave for 15 minutes to "warm it up" before putting her dinner in it.  Having a good competent agency more comprehensive team of carers might have made her independent living more sustainable but we decided to combine households instead.

sorry - I suppose I should shut up now but please do ask if you have any more questions.

[Deleted User]

Thanks for the very detailed reply, and very interesting to hear your story. I don't really know the full details of my parents finances, I've not wanted to look up till now. My father has a pretty good final salary pension (over 2k a month I think), and I think my mum would get half of it if he dies. My mother just gets the minimum state pension it looks like (350 or something a month), she didn't work while she was bringing me and my sister up. Given my fathers plan to pay for remaining tuition fees I think they must have at least 50k, possibly over 100. The most likely thing looks to me that my mother will go on for many more years despite here cognitive impairment, but unless a miracle happens I can't see my father lasting another 6 months (but then I thought that 6 months ago), he's already terribly underweight (in the red zone of the BMI chart), looks anorexic.

Brie

Sorry that things look so glum for you.  Hopefully dad will surprise you and tick along for a while yet.

Another thing that might be helpful - particularly as you'll be running your parents' finances is that you might find it easiest to get 3rd party authority on their bank accounts.  Or get you/OH put on their accounts joint.  The bank might be willing to send a community liaison to dad's bedside to have a good discussion with him about this.  You would need to be there as well with all the regular ID docs.  Natwest was happy to send someone to the hospital MiL was at at one point and I was added to her account as 3rd party.  This meant that I could deal with anything to do with the account, had my own debit card, online access, all completely legitimately and didn't need to wave a LPA under anyone's nose.  So cash out at the ATM, so she had a tenner in her wallet to buy a coffee when her carer took her out.  Also with online access I could set up all the SO/DDs she needed.  Meanwhile my OH went joint on her Halifax accounts so we had a good oversight of everything.

Brie

Oh and your mom may well get a bump up on the SP when your dad goes.  Not sure if it's automatic or if it needs to be requested.  Someone was talking about something similar at work today.....

lr1277

Some thought for you.
Is your dad underweight because he is not eating? I have documented my dad’s issues over many posts but here are a few bits of info. There is a sensor in your throat that tells your body when you are hungry. For some older people this sensor stops working so the person does not want to eat. One part of the solution is meal replacement drinks/shots. I forget but they are a small volume, but high in calories and protein. Our Gp prescribed them for dad and as he gets free prescriptions…. Dad needed to take 4-6 bottles a day so that is a lot of bottles per prescription. Either you will have to go and collect them or get them delivered by their usual pharmacy or subscribe to an online pharmacist. These are also high in sugar but at dad’s age that didn’t matter. If possible clean his teeth but this is not necessary.
Talking of Gp’s, find out what you need to do to talk to the Gp/surgery on your parents’ behalf. This was incredibly helpful for us as a family. Otherwise the surgery staff will only talk to the patient, not even their spouse.
Dad would occasionally fall out of bed, even the single hospital style beds with the side guards. Mum couldn’t lift dad back into bed. So she would call the ambulance to check dad hadn’t injured himself and also to put dad back to bed.
The local authority supplied lots of equipment including the electric bed, mats to put around the bed, a commode and a few other things. This was all free. I think the local authority got involved after dad stayed in a hospital and they referred him. They also put us onto a care agency who were very good. Essentially mum managed by making dad’s food and the care workers did everything else including washing dad and moving him about. 

Dad used to get many infections. This was because the fluid couldn’t drain from his chest whilst in bed. So there was a 2 pronged solution. The care workers would take him for a 20 feet walk 1-2 times a day. Also we rented him an electric recliner chair to sit in for 4-6 hours a day. This helped the fluid to drain and made him use his abdominal muscles. The local authority did not have chairs to lend.
We were did everything to minimise infections because an infection might have meant a hospital stay. And the outcomes are worse in a hospital as compared to being at home. I am not knocking the NHS, as they provided excellent care in their hospitals. But people thrive better at home. Also when dad was on a ward he hated the 24 hr noise and lights and wanted us to get him home ASAP.
That’s it for now. If my suggestions resonate, feel free to look through my posts.
It is very hard to look after somebody who doesn’t have mental or physical capacity. Please don’t underestimate the physical and mental toll.
HTH

lr1277

Brie said:

Oh and your mom may well get a bump up on the SP when your dad goes.  Not sure if it's automatic or if it needs to be requested.  Someone was talking about something similar at work today.....

Mum stayed at home during dad’s working life. But dad registered mum for something I think in the 80’s and she started getting a pension when she turned 65.
When dad died, DWP topped up her pension to be dad’s pension amount. In fact they were excellent.
However dad’s private pension provider has been shockingly bad. They are not paying mum the correct pension amount even based on their own calculations. Also they have not sent the P60 over 11 months after dad died. We need to submit dad’s tax return sometime in October.

Newly_retired

On the subject of widow’s pension, I can confirm that the Pension Service ( DWP) were very quick to increase my state pension to take account of my late husband’s contributions. I completed the Tell Us Once form, and didn’t need to do anything else at all for that.
The occupational pension is another matter. I am still in dispute with them four months later. 

Mojisola

[Deleted User] said:

I don't really know the full details of my parents finances, I've not wanted to look up till now. 

Given my fathers plan to pay for remaining tuition fees I think they must have at least 50k, possibly over 100.

It would be worth finding out whether this is all in his name.

AIUI, if your father needed residential care, everything in his name would be put towards paying for that, leaving your mother with her pension but no savings which could make maintaining the house difficult.

If the savings are in joint accounts or shared between them, they would each keep 50% of joint savings plus what's in their individual names.

If they aren't getting it already, it would be worth applying for Attendance Allowance - it sounds as if they are both entitled to it.  If the benefit system is new to you, ask AgeUK for advice about form filling.

elsien

Even with the LPA if they have capacity it’s up to them what they do, finances wise Ditto moving in with you or vice versa.
So that might be something you want to start exploring with them now while they’re able to give their views because they might think it’s a terrible idea. 

With regard to deprivation of assets, it really does depend on the purpose of the gift, but also the financial circumstances.
so if there is a real possibility that your dad might need residential care/other paid care, he would be wise to consider stopping giving the money now unless he does have substantial savings - however, as he has got capacity that is still his decision to make regardless of the LPA. 

Deliberate deprivation of assets is based on individual circumstances, and there isn’t a one size fits all answer

No-one is going to chase your children for any gifts to be returned. What could happen is that it would be treated as notional capital so he will be treated as if he still has the money. Which would obviously limit his options an awful lot in the future.

Age UK have some very good information page us about paying for care if you want to read up on that a little more.

OutdoorQueen

Apologies, if you are aware. Attendance Allowance isn’t means tested so it is well worth applying for it. Both parents may qualify, so do 2 forms. 

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/attendance-allowance-claim-form

https://www.ageuk.org.uk/bp-assets/globalassets/torbay/original-blocks/our-services/ia/guide-on-how-to-complete-attendace-allowance-forms.pdf

You mention Mum has cognitive impairment…..have you applied for the council tax reduction? Apologies if you know, many don’t so I share whenever I can. I wish they would change the title from Severe Mental Impairment discount.     Apply via the local district council.  They will probably have a form on their website.  

https://www.moneysavingexpert.com/reclaim/severe-mental-impairment-dementia-council-tax-rebate/