Faulty iPhone Consumer Rights

RefluentBeans

DullGreyGuy said:

RefluentBeans said:

DullGreyGuy said:

RefluentBeans said:

isplumm said:

A few years ago I managed to drop my iPhone in the sea - on the beach - I took it to a local phone repair shop & they fixed it for £200 .... is it worth the OP looking at that - the phone is nearly 3 years old, so even if OP managed to get money back out of JL they would not get the £1k?

I tend to agree with this. I’m not sure that any engineers report would actually say much. Could take it to a phone shop and ask if they feel it’s because of an inherent fault, but think that there’s very few people who will actually have the expertise to say if it is or it isn’t. 

It simply isn’t enough to say ‘the logic board on the phone has not lasted as long as it should have done, and there seems to be a minimum amount of damage from a consumer.’ Without identifying the faulty component on the motherboard, it’s hard to say what the issue is. And those specialists are typically expensive. 

You of course can claim the money for the report back from JL if they side with you, but they may not. Or may be inconclusive. It’s a gamble and I don’t think there’s good odds. In addition if the ‘expert’ is not trained in the device, or subcomponent issues, then JL could turn around and say the report is not valid. If this is the case, you’d likely have to sue to get that money back. 

If the OP is correct in the assessment of the cause then on this case it should actually be fairly easy to assess... phone is marketed with IP68 water resistance meaning A. The moisture sensor in the SIM tray has not been triggered evidencing that the phone has not been submerged nor had excessive exposure to humidity. The water seal around the ear piece shows excessive deterioration for its age with no signs of physical damage. The logic board below the ear piece has failed and shows evidence of water ingress despite the moisture sensor having not triggered. There is no material damage to the device and it is otherwise in above average condition for its age. 

It is therefore evident that the premature failure of the weatherproofing around the ear piece has allowed moisture to enter the phone and caused the failure of the logic board. 

Whilst in my prior example I did name a particular chip as the cause it really just needs to say why something has failed, if there were multiple issues of dry solder it wouldnt be necessary to list each and every chip that's had poor connections made. I do agree however that most phone shops are just following basic guides and are often not trained to a sufficient level to identify the why X failed nor have the traditional tools to test points of failure. 

IF it’s caused by water damage. No guarantee it is. As far as I’ve seen, the device hasn’t been opened. And if it’s opened before the report then the device has already been tampered with and can’t make a comment on the weathering of the waterproof protection. 

Like I said - I don’t think the logical option is pursuing an engineers report. It makes sense in a car context where the report can be expensive, but is a small fraction of the value of the product. In this case, even £100 is 10%. Plus it depends how long the lifespan of the phone is - I’d guess that JL would go for a pay out of £500ish as I think a reasonable time would be 4-5 years. That also has the advantage, to JL, of getting rid of any further issues. If they pay out at all, if the engineers report says what the OP wants it to. 

Yes, hence the opening statement of if the OP's assumption is correct.

JL seem to simply do a straight line depreciation over 72 months based on both my claim (freezer) and other claims we've seen on here with JL for laptops and other small electronics. With the device being 31 months old at point of failure you'd be looking at circa 57% refund if a claim was successful. 

10% of costs in a claim is not particularly high, though there is always the risk of just compounding your losses if the report ultimately is inconclusive or determines its user error/damage. 

The issue is that an engineers report will likely cost at least £100. For a less than £600 refund (as phone cost £1000) that’s a lot of risk. Especially if the report, as I believe it will, not actually say much of substance. The report you gave us detailed, but it’s only valid if the person typing it has experience in this. 

If I were JL, and didn’t want to pay our, I’d just refute the ‘expertise’ of the engineer and let a court decide. 

Fundamentally - for a potential refund of £600, is it worth risking spending £100 to get a report that may, or may not, be enough to convince JL the product was inherently faulty? 

the_lunatic_is_in_my_head

RefluentBeans said:

The issue is that an engineers report will likely cost at least £100. For a less than £600 refund (as phone cost £1000) that’s a lot of risk. Especially if the report, as I believe it will, not actually say much of substance. The report you gave us detailed, but it’s only valid if the person typing it has experience in this. 

If I were JL, and didn’t want to pay our, I’d just refute the ‘expertise’ of the engineer and let a court decide. 

Fundamentally - for a potential refund of £600, is it worth risking spending £100 to get a report that may, or may not, be enough to convince JL the product was inherently faulty? 

Without JL undertaking their own "report" they wouldn't have a comparison upon which to refute another's opinion for the court to decide upon.

DullGreyGuy

RefluentBeans said:

DullGreyGuy said:

RefluentBeans said:

DullGreyGuy said:

RefluentBeans said:

isplumm said:

A few years ago I managed to drop my iPhone in the sea - on the beach - I took it to a local phone repair shop & they fixed it for £200 .... is it worth the OP looking at that - the phone is nearly 3 years old, so even if OP managed to get money back out of JL they would not get the £1k?

I tend to agree with this. I’m not sure that any engineers report would actually say much. Could take it to a phone shop and ask if they feel it’s because of an inherent fault, but think that there’s very few people who will actually have the expertise to say if it is or it isn’t. 

It simply isn’t enough to say ‘the logic board on the phone has not lasted as long as it should have done, and there seems to be a minimum amount of damage from a consumer.’ Without identifying the faulty component on the motherboard, it’s hard to say what the issue is. And those specialists are typically expensive. 

You of course can claim the money for the report back from JL if they side with you, but they may not. Or may be inconclusive. It’s a gamble and I don’t think there’s good odds. In addition if the ‘expert’ is not trained in the device, or subcomponent issues, then JL could turn around and say the report is not valid. If this is the case, you’d likely have to sue to get that money back. 

If the OP is correct in the assessment of the cause then on this case it should actually be fairly easy to assess... phone is marketed with IP68 water resistance meaning A. The moisture sensor in the SIM tray has not been triggered evidencing that the phone has not been submerged nor had excessive exposure to humidity. The water seal around the ear piece shows excessive deterioration for its age with no signs of physical damage. The logic board below the ear piece has failed and shows evidence of water ingress despite the moisture sensor having not triggered. There is no material damage to the device and it is otherwise in above average condition for its age. 

It is therefore evident that the premature failure of the weatherproofing around the ear piece has allowed moisture to enter the phone and caused the failure of the logic board. 

Whilst in my prior example I did name a particular chip as the cause it really just needs to say why something has failed, if there were multiple issues of dry solder it wouldnt be necessary to list each and every chip that's had poor connections made. I do agree however that most phone shops are just following basic guides and are often not trained to a sufficient level to identify the why X failed nor have the traditional tools to test points of failure. 

IF it’s caused by water damage. No guarantee it is. As far as I’ve seen, the device hasn’t been opened. And if it’s opened before the report then the device has already been tampered with and can’t make a comment on the weathering of the waterproof protection. 

Like I said - I don’t think the logical option is pursuing an engineers report. It makes sense in a car context where the report can be expensive, but is a small fraction of the value of the product. In this case, even £100 is 10%. Plus it depends how long the lifespan of the phone is - I’d guess that JL would go for a pay out of £500ish as I think a reasonable time would be 4-5 years. That also has the advantage, to JL, of getting rid of any further issues. If they pay out at all, if the engineers report says what the OP wants it to. 

Yes, hence the opening statement of if the OP's assumption is correct.

JL seem to simply do a straight line depreciation over 72 months based on both my claim (freezer) and other claims we've seen on here with JL for laptops and other small electronics. With the device being 31 months old at point of failure you'd be looking at circa 57% refund if a claim was successful. 

10% of costs in a claim is not particularly high, though there is always the risk of just compounding your losses if the report ultimately is inconclusive or determines its user error/damage. 

If I were JL, and didn’t want to pay our, I’d just refute the ‘expertise’ of the engineer and let a court decide. 

Fundamentally - for a potential refund of £600, is it worth risking spending £100 to get a report that may, or may not, be enough to convince JL the product was inherently faulty? 

No, for £600 you'd just settle the claim as the cost of you going to court is not going to make it worth while to defend as at that value it will go to Small Track where lawyers costs cannot be recovered.  JL were adamant they weren't liable in my case but the straight after I submitted a claim JL appointed DWF Law and they were offering to settle in just short of full and 1hr later agreed to settle in full and my claim was circa £2,000. 

henrygregory

Hello everyone. Update for you...

I booked an appointment at my local Apple store for yesterday as in addition to the phone, a set of Apple headphones I have fell appart on Friday - not a good few weeks. 

Apple inspected the device and as it was out of warranty, advised it can be repaired but would come to £629. I explained that I would like to take action under the Consumer Rights Act and I was wondering if they might be able to provide me with a report just clarifying the condition of the phone as if I am to send the device to an independent (VAT registered) engineer, I wanted proof before I did so that the handset is in excellent condition and has not been tampered with. 

The guy was really helpful and included the following in the diagnosis:

Issue: Device is stuck in a boot loop. True depth camera not working.
Steps to Reproduce: Observed issue. Attempted restore but it failed with error 4013.
Cosmetic Condition: No damage. No evidence of liquid damage.
Proposed Resolution: We offer a full unit replacement at cost as device is out of warranty.

I sent the full report from Apple to John Lewis just so they have a record of what Apple had said and I asked John Lewis if this was an acceptable report (even though I was expecting them to say no) and if they could clarify if they needed me to proceed with an VAT registered engineer report. 

This is the prompt response I had this morning:

Thank you for your email regarding your Apple iPhone 12 Pro Max. I am sorry to learn that your device has stopped working and appreciate your concerns. Please be assured I am keen to advise further.
 
Apple offer a repair replacement scheme, as in they confirm the device is faulty and rather than repair it, they replace it. This would be considered the first repair in this instance.
 
While we want our customers products to last a significant amount of time after the guarantee, electrical goods can develop faults at any stage.
 
As a retailer, we do need to put a limit on our warranty as all others would. Once the guarantee is over, it is the customers decision whether to proceed with a repair or purchase a new product. It would be chargeable to the customer.
 
Upon reviewing the report Apple have provided, they have not stated the device is inherently faulty. Therefore, on this occasion you do not have a valid claim under the Consumer Rights Act 2015.
 
I appreciate this is not the outcome you were hoping for; however, I do hope that it clarifies our stance.

So as expected, I will need to get an independent engineer report and I am going to need to get them to confirm there is an inherent fault. I would be very grateful if anyone has any recommendations on suitable companies I could contact? 

Jumblebumble

powerful_Rogue said:

henrygregory said:

Hello both, yes it is JL @born_again. A few years back, I purchased a £12.99 bathroom towel from them. I had just moved house. I never got round to getting it out of the packet and when I did, there was thread hanging out which went all through the towel. A manufacturing defect I guess. JL refused to deal with the matter as it had been 35 days since I purchased. I was astonished at how they quibbled and found it really petty so I am expecting a similar experience but obviously this time, it isn't a towel, it is a very expensive piece of technology.

I have done some digging and found the water contact indicator, it is in the sim tray so you don't need to pull the phone appart. The indicator is not indicating so it has not had water damage but that isn't to say maybe somewhere else it has picked up moisture. 

I am more than happy to take the item to Apple, but I expect they will not own up to there being a defect. 
What sort of independent engineers are there? I would be happy to go to one and get a report.
Either way, I have contacted the retailer today to make them aware that I have an issue but I have not said anything further at this stage as I was wondering if it might be best for me to get someone independent to look at it first as they can confirm in writing it has not been damaged by water, it is pristine with very good battery health etc, all things that will work in my favour in terms of how little it has been used and how it is still worth a lot - had I have sold it on. 

Thanks for your help on this. 

Any local phone repair shop.

You think that anyone is going to take any notice of what a non Apple certified shop says?
The person writing the report could be the "man with the broom"

sheramber

Iy is not who writes the report that is the problem it is someone to say 'it is an inherent fault' as in a part was faulty when installed in the phone and has now failed completely. 

Alderbank

sheramber said:

Iy is not who writes the report that is the problem it is someone to say 'it is an inherent fault' as in a part was faulty when installed in the phone and has now failed completely. 

I don't agree. We take it for granted that the report the OP submits will say 'it is an inherent fault, the A14 bionic SoC was faulty when installed in the phone and has now failed completely.'
Not much point in paying for and submitting the report otherwise.

The problem is very much the credibility of who writes that report.

sheramber

Alderbank said:

sheramber said:

Iy is not who writes the report that is the problem it is someone to say 'it is an inherent fault' as in a part was faulty when installed in the phone and has now failed completely. 

I don't agree. We take it for granted that the report the OP submits will say 'it is an inherent fault, the A14 bionic SoC was faulty when installed in the phone and has now failed completely.'
Not much point in paying for and submitting the report otherwise.

The problem is very much the credibility of who writes that report.

Assuming someone can say that.  Apple obviously didn't.

henrygregory

sheramber said:

Alderbank said:

sheramber said:

Iy is not who writes the report that is the problem it is someone to say 'it is an inherent fault' as in a part was faulty when installed in the phone and has now failed completely. 

I don't agree. We take it for granted that the report the OP submits will say 'it is an inherent fault, the A14 bionic SoC was faulty when installed in the phone and has now failed completely.'
Not much point in paying for and submitting the report otherwise.

The problem is very much the credibility of who writes that report.

Assuming someone can say that.  Apple obviously didn't.

And this is my problem as I am not really sure who to go to next but as far as I am concerned, I have really looked after my device, been without it for weeks now, going to have to buy a replacement whilst this is all sorted out and out of principle, I do not pay £1099 for the device to be totally useless in 2 years and seven months. Fair enough if it had been mistreated but it has been the complete opposite and I am astounded at how difficult it seems to be to get a positive outcome when it is obvious, something in the device has failed. This is why I took the advice some people posted here and went direct to Apple to at least have them verify it has not been tampered with, is in good condition etc.

born_again

sheramber said:

Alderbank said:

sheramber said:

Iy is not who writes the report that is the problem it is someone to say 'it is an inherent fault' as in a part was faulty when installed in the phone and has now failed completely. 

I don't agree. We take it for granted that the report the OP submits will say 'it is an inherent fault, the A14 bionic SoC was faulty when installed in the phone and has now failed completely.'
Not much point in paying for and submitting the report otherwise.

The problem is very much the credibility of who writes that report.

Assuming someone can say that.  Apple obviously didn't.

Of course not.. Think what that would do for their credibility... 
Apple fits faulty parts to phone. 😶‍🌫️