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Missing Parcel of Land on land registry plan

So we are in the process of buying a probate property which is described as having a garden running down to the river
So ive looked at the land registry document for this property and one of the adjourning property and another one next door but one (the other one immediately next door isnt online)
Now the other properties shows the gardens going down to the river and including part of an island in the river
It states on the particulars that the gardens runs down to the river
HOWEVER the plan for this  clearly shows the red line falling far short of the river and a good sized parcel of land in front of the river which doesn't show as being owned by anyone.  The whole lot is hedged of from the neighbouring gardens and for all intents and purposes it appears to be "owned" by the property in question.
It can not be accessed by anyone else 
Having River access is part of the appeal of this property 
What would you do in this situation?
I am thinking wait and see what the original outline plans show, or see if the land registry have the original outline plan scanned.  If the original documents clearly show the ownership as being with the house that can be amended etc
HOWEVER if it doesn't then would I be in a good position to negotiate on price? i will still be buying the property but if there is a parcel of undefined ownership would this make you think twice? 
Advocate in the County Court dealing with a variety of cases, attending the courts in the North East and North Yorkshire
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  • user1977
    user1977 Forumite Posts: 11,758
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    Grizebeck said:

    HOWEVER if it doesn't then would I be in a good position to negotiate on price? 
    Not if the sellers can provide you with a title indemnity policy.
  • Grizebeck
    Grizebeck Forumite Posts: 2,257
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    edited 23 August at 3:23PM
    user1977 said:
    Grizebeck said:

    HOWEVER if it doesn't then would I be in a good position to negotiate on price? 
    Not if the sellers can provide you with a title indemnity policy.
    Is that relevant in this case?
    If the original plan and the current plan both show the same thing then is a question of legal ownership? because your not buying Whats legal indicated and a piece of land which appears to have no obvious owner? It is also means that technically there an riparian rights as you dont legally own a piece of land
    Advocate in the County Court dealing with a variety of cases, attending the courts in the North East and North Yorkshire
  • user1977
    user1977 Forumite Posts: 11,758
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    Grizebeck said:
    user1977 said:
    Grizebeck said:

    HOWEVER if it doesn't then would I be in a good position to negotiate on price? 
    Not if the sellers can provide you with a title indemnity policy.
    Is that relevant in this case?

    If they're occupying it as if they are the owner, yes.
  • Grizebeck
    Grizebeck Forumite Posts: 2,257
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    See the attached document
    the missing garden is marked in green
    whats marked in yellow is what the neighbouring properties have and what i have been advised is correct, the bit of river and the island bit
    Advocate in the County Court dealing with a variety of cases, attending the courts in the North East and North Yorkshire
  • Grizebeck
    Grizebeck Forumite Posts: 2,257
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    user1977 said:
    Grizebeck said:
    user1977 said:
    Grizebeck said:

    HOWEVER if it doesn't then would I be in a good position to negotiate on price? 
    Not if the sellers can provide you with a title indemnity policy.
    Is that relevant in this case?

    If they're occupying it as if they are the owner, yes.
    Would adverse possesion then come in to play?
    Advocate in the County Court dealing with a variety of cases, attending the courts in the North East and North Yorkshire
  • propertyrental
    propertyrental Forumite Posts: 1,663
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    Not sure what mean by 'the original plan'? Is this a new (or recent build development, where a developer bought the whole area, chopped it up and sold off parcels with new houses on? If so, take a look at the council planning approvals. 

    The LR might have a TP1, but if so it would be surprising if the title Plan did not reflect the TP1 plan.

    If these are older properties then it could be that plot is owned by someone else and simply not registered. The current owner may or may not be aware of their ownership.

    Have you done a map search at the LR (rather than address based)?

    https://search-property-information.service.gov.uk/search/map-search/

    And what have the seller's said about ownership of this plot (ignore the estate agent marketing guff).

    Have you knocked on the neighbours' doors yet?

    Depending on the results, one long term option would be to buy, use the land as if you owned it, and then claim adverse possession.


  • user1977
    user1977 Forumite Posts: 11,758
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    Grizebeck said:
    user1977 said:
    Grizebeck said:
    user1977 said:
    Grizebeck said:

    HOWEVER if it doesn't then would I be in a good position to negotiate on price? 
    Not if the sellers can provide you with a title indemnity policy.
    Is that relevant in this case?

    If they're occupying it as if they are the owner, yes.
    Would adverse possesion then come in to play?
    Yes, potentially, with the title indemnity policy to back it up until you have good title.

    But sounds like we're crossing several bridges before we've found out who owns them...
  • Grizebeck
    Grizebeck Forumite Posts: 2,257
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    Not sure what mean by 'the original plan'? Is this a new (or recent build development, where a developer bought the whole area, chopped it up and sold off parcels with new houses on? If so, take a look at the council planning approvals. 

    The LR might have a TP1, but if so it would be surprising if the title Plan did not reflect the TP1 plan.

    If these are older properties then it could be that plot is owned by someone else and simply not registered. The current owner may or may not be aware of their ownership.

    Have you done a map search at the LR (rather than address based)?

    https://search-property-information.service.gov.uk/search/map-search/

    And what have the seller's said about ownership of this plot (ignore the estate agent marketing guff).

    Have you knocked on the neighbours' doors yet?

    Depending on the results, one long term option would be to buy, use the land as if you owned it, and then claim adverse possession.


    I mean the original paper documents , its from the 1950s
    Ive done a map search of the parcel of land in questions and no results
    its a probate sale so they wont know
    the neighbour says the house runs all way down to the river and part of the island, (her land isnt registered and has lived there all her life)
    Advocate in the County Court dealing with a variety of cases, attending the courts in the North East and North Yorkshire
  • Grizebeck
    Grizebeck Forumite Posts: 2,257
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    user1977 said:
    Grizebeck said:
    user1977 said:
    Grizebeck said:
    user1977 said:
    Grizebeck said:

    HOWEVER if it doesn't then would I be in a good position to negotiate on price? 
    Not if the sellers can provide you with a title indemnity policy.
    Is that relevant in this case?

    If they're occupying it as if they are the owner, yes.
    Would adverse possesion then come in to play?
    Yes, potentially, with the title indemnity policy to back it up until you have good title.

    But sounds like we're crossing several bridges before we've found out who owns them...
    yes good point, !just thinking of possibilities 
    Advocate in the County Court dealing with a variety of cases, attending the courts in the North East and North Yorkshire
  • Tiglet2
    Tiglet2 Forumite Posts: 2,368
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    Grizebeck said:
    Not sure what mean by 'the original plan'? Is this a new (or recent build development, where a developer bought the whole area, chopped it up and sold off parcels with new houses on? If so, take a look at the council planning approvals. 

    The LR might have a TP1, but if so it would be surprising if the title Plan did not reflect the TP1 plan.

    If these are older properties then it could be that plot is owned by someone else and simply not registered. The current owner may or may not be aware of their ownership.

    Have you done a map search at the LR (rather than address based)?

    https://search-property-information.service.gov.uk/search/map-search/

    And what have the seller's said about ownership of this plot (ignore the estate agent marketing guff).

    Have you knocked on the neighbours' doors yet?

    Depending on the results, one long term option would be to buy, use the land as if you owned it, and then claim adverse possession.


    I mean the original paper documents , its from the 1950s
    Ive done a map search of the parcel of land in questions and no results
    its a probate sale so they wont know
    the neighbour says the house runs all way down to the river and part of the island, (her land isnt registered and has lived there all her life)

    The original plan from the 50s may differ from the current title plan held at Land Registry, because over the years land changes where bits are transferred or acquired, so you cannot rely on a plan from 70 years ago.  The red outline shows the extent of the property you are buying.  

    I'd suggest doing a map search of the area you have marked green and yellow and see if it is in the same ownership as the property but on a separate title, or whether someone else owns it.  Or isn't it registered?
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