No longer eligible for ESA (Contribution based - support group)

AdamPD

Heh well, I had three letters today dated the 24th of August 2023.

One was a P45, the other was about tax payable on ESA for the period up to August 2022.

The third letter however is just mind boggling.

We have looked at your claim again following a recent change.
We cannot pay you ESA from 30 July 2021
We cannot pay you because you have not paid or been credited with enough NIC's
We hav eused the tax years ending 5 April 2019 and 5 April 2020.
We cannot pay you an allowance from 30 August 2022. This is because:
You are required to claim Universal Credit
We will credit you with NIC's while claiming ESA.

Still waiting on UC to fix the ESA deduction.

Jyana

AdamPD said:

Heh well, I had three letters today dated the 24th of August 2023.

One was a P45, the other was about tax payable on ESA for the period up to August 2022.

The third letter however is just mind boggling.

We have looked at your claim again following a recent change.
We cannot pay you ESA from 30 July 2021
We cannot pay you because you have not paid or been credited with enough NIC's
We hav eused the tax years ending 5 April 2019 and 5 April 2020.
We cannot pay you an allowance from 30 August 2022. This is because:
You are required to claim Universal Credit
We will credit you with NIC's while claiming ESA.

Still waiting on UC to fix the ESA deduction.

How strange. They knew that you were on UC back in 2019 when you applied in the autumn - going by your past posts here (not prying, just trying get some background to understand the situation a bit more clearly for you to help) so this shouldn't be news to them, nor a case of rushing through a claim during COVID times and messing things up.

Do you recall the process of claiming for ESA and UC back then; the order it happened in, the passing on of all the evidence of your job. savings, capital, and mortgage on the property you part own with your family, etc.

There's also the post I asked about earlier in this thread where it sounds like you were moving over from tax credits to UC last year in April, but didn't want to start claiming UC due to not having had the LCWRA element side of things properly explained. Poppy and calcotti are far better at that than anyone on the other end of the phone imo and got you straight though and it sounds like you then were then on both ESA and UC. But I the thing I'm still a little unsure of is the tax credits mention in the opening post, did you transfer from tax credits to UC in April last year?

You have also mentioned, in this post for example (short relevant quote below too for summary), that you have had problems with paying your NI Credits around this time too, so could this also be an issue that is now coming back?

"So I checked my SA302 for 2018 and I remembered Class 2 National insurance contributions were paid monthly by direct debit at one point, then they scrapped that and added it to the yearly tax bill instead
So I deducted the £151.05 from the total tax bill and now the figures match ok.
So I assume this is an issue with Simpletax not filing the proper figure?"

So it looks like there could a couple of things going on that have made them want to take a closer look into things here I think.

AdamPD

Ahh my memory is shot after having covid twice, I can barely remember what the process was

But I do remember I was on ESA to start with, I was in the assessment phase for what seemed like forever.

I remember I applied for UC during that period as was recommended by the advisor, so I did, but I was only getting something silly like £1.05 a month due to receiving ESA, so I closed my claim.

Once I was put in the support group with ESA, that's when I reapplied for UC (I reapplied on 11 Sept 2022)

As far as NI contributions go, no I have full years from 2014 onwards, there was a gap during 2013-2014, but it's been covered fully since then.

The issue with the mortgage and HMRC etc I believe was just down to me not being good with numbers (Curse you Dyslexia!)

Muttleythefrog

This is a rare thread in that the more I read the more baffled I am....the more information provided the less clarity exists. I do wonder if it'll ever be truly unravelled as to what actual decisions they have taken regarding ESA or whether they had any basis. I do also wonder if the erratic claim behaviour has caused the confusions and communication problems including between ESA and UC to determine payments alongside possibly exceeding permitted work. I do also wonder if the claimant is not acting in their best strategic/future interest (dropping ESA) in order to try to simplify this monster mess. 

AdamPD

I don't know what caused the issue(s), I just applied for what was suggested to me, which originally was ESA, due to long term illnesses thanks to Covid.
It was during that application I was encouraged to apply for UC as well, but as I was still in the evaluation (pre medical assessment) stage, UC would insist I attend a meeting every fortnight and it quite honestly stressed me out a lot, so I cancelled my claim.
I also had to have two medical assessments, one for UC, the other for ESA, which seemed odd and again, unnecessary stress I didn't want.
Once I was entered into the support group at ESA I reapplied for UC.
I hadn't heard anything from the DWP since that time, until this incident.

My UC payment came through with the ESA deduction on the 5th and I'm still waiting for a response/update on the ESA removal bit
Is the DWP just exceptionally busy these days? I would normally get a response the same day to journal messages.

Alice_Holt

What exact date did you apply for ESA?


Have you requested a mandatory reconsideration of the UC decision to deduct presumed ESA payments?

AdamPD

I'm not 100% sure when I applied for ESa, I believe it was before the original covid outbreak.
I haven't requested the mandatory reconsideration, as I'd rather have just one benefit vs two.

Alice_Holt

Since your NI record shows full years contribution from 2014/15 to 2022/23, the ESA explanation re NI appears nonsensical.

Here are the ESA requirments:

https://www.entitledto.co.uk/help/employment-and-support-allowance-contribution-based


In your situation I'd also challenge that third ESA letter you referenced in an earlier post, cite the NI information that you have full contribution in 2019/20.

I doubt if you will get far with either UC or ESA unless you exercise your right of appeal. You really do need to do this.  If you are not able to manage this yourself, then get an urgent appt with your local advice charity, and get their help with both MR's.

Have you checked your earnings against the ESA permitted earnings limit?
If you earnt over the limit, it's probable that this might be the reason for your ESA ending.    

https://www.citizensadvice.org.uk/benefits/universal-credit/problems-with-your-payment/challenging-a-universal-credit-decision-mandatory-consideration/

https://www.citizensadvice.org.uk/benefits/benefits-introduction/problems-with-benefits-and-tax-credits/challenging-benefit-decisions/challenging-a-decision-by-the-dwp-or-hmrc/challenging-a-benefit-decision-mandatory-reconsideration/#h-if-you-ve-missed-the-deadline

I suspect if you don't officially challenge the decisions, you will continue to go round in circles, and in the meantime UC will continue to underpay you. 

Alice_Holt

AdamPD said:

I haven't requested the mandatory reconsideration, as I'd rather have just one benefit vs two.

      I'm talking about an MR about the UC decision to reduce your payments. I.e the one benefit you would rather have, and which is (apparently) underpaying you by c.£120 a week.

     Look at my earlier post from 30th Aug.
   "If your UC payment for the next assessment is still being reduced by an assumed ESA payment, I'd be inclined to ask for a MR of the decision to reduce your UC payments. Back it up with any documentation from ESA confirming your actual ESA payments stopped in July, and a copy of bank statements evidencing this.
I would have thought the immediate issue is to restore UC payments (and get them corrected) from when ESA payments actually stopped being paid."


    Sorry to say this, but I think you may (understandable) be out of your depth with this. You best course of action is to contact your local advice charity asap, and see if they have an experienced benefits adviser who can help you sort this DWP mess out,

AdamPD

Ah sorry for the confusion, but the deduction added to UC because I was claiming and being paid ESA up until the end of July.
So I'm confused why I would need to dispute it? Sorry for not understanding.