Missing items during building work

mavenmim

Grumpy_chap said:

These seem to be electronic items of some kind:
These items were stored for some period of time in a poly tunnel, which may have got very hot at times inside and / or may not have been wholly weather tight against moisture ingress.

Then the items were moved to an outhouse where stuff may have been piled on them or got dusty or whatever.

It may just be best to simply replace and know you have new items actually installed rather than old items that may be underperforming in any case.

The items had a 10 year warranty, and the polytunnel is watertight (though the items are waterproof). If items can go under 30 degree chlorinated pool water, I'd hope that the temperature in a midlands polytunnel wouldn't ruin them - and that the contractor wouldn't have stored them there if there was a risk that it would.

Grumpy_chap said:

It sounds like you are having a very large amount of building works undertaken.  This is one of the bumps to be met from your contingency for the project.

You have pretty much said yourself that any theft would be pointless:

So, that leaves disposed of by mistake or still somewhere in the outhouse or polytunnel.
Either way, for the sake of £1k, it is not worth expending days of your contractor's time searching.
The most pragmatic thing here is take this as an unfortunate hit and then make an apology to the contractor (was it Alex?) that is threatening to walk off the job.  Changing contractor part way through the work will impact you by far more than £1k.

I agree with this. Although we've had to suck up so many increases in material costs and day rates of trades, and additional things that were not included in the original quotes, that we've spent all our contingency ten times over already, and had to get an additional mortgage to get things finished. So wasting money doesn't feel great, though I agree it is relatively small in the context, and not worth losing relationships or delaying work over.

mavenmim

Grumpy_chap said:

It does not really matter what the items are, but the OP purchased some items a couple of years ago and kept them in storage.  Now the OP wants the items, they are not available.  This is not down to Alex, Ben or Carl to cover the loss.  It was down to the OP to take care of their possessions and it would be the OP that needed to insure the loss (or just pay for replacement).

These items went missing at some point in the 2 or 3 years. 

They didn't disappear some time in the 2-3 years, they disappeared in the last 6 weeks, between the inventory check when he moved the pool materials into the newly converted outbuilding and built the frame, and when he went back to assemble the heating and filtration system.

Grumpy_chap said:

Where are / could they be?

• Still in the shed somewhere but mislaid - not an insurance claim
• Discarded, in the skip or previously - not an insurance claim
• Stolen by a person unknown or by one of the contractors that the OP has granted access to the areas where the items were stored.  Possibly an insurance claim.  Has the OP reported the theft to the Police to obtain a crime reference number?  Likely to be the first thing required for an insurance claim.  Would reporting be a waste of Police time?

It seems the OP knows (in their heart) it was not theft anyway:

mavenmim said:

Yes, I agree that theft seems unlikely. 

Would an insurance claim for theft be dishonest in that case?

The only way to resolve this is for the OP to pay to replace the items, hope they are not on an extended lead time and get this job finished.  
A job that rolls on for many years is a pain for everyone concerned and just burns money.
The priority for the OP is getting the contractors to agree to finish the job now, given they are fed up with the situation and possible accusations:

Focus on what can be changed - the future - and get this whole job closed off as smoothly as possible.

As I said, we've checked the skip thoroughly, and we've checked the polytunnel and the converted outbuilding and not found anything. There is a small chance that Alex's labourer (I think I called him Dave) put the box aside somewhere else that we've not thought of, or that Carl put it somewhere and has forgotten - but neither seems likely. But then, nor does theft. I don't know all the ins and outs of insurance, but some cover loss as well as theft. But you are right that in this situation I'll probably have to suck it up.

mavenmim

ThisIsWeird said:

Yup - this is more uncertain than I first imagined.

Mavenmim, would Carl be up for a 50:50 split so you can all move on?

Yeah, my feelings also. What I thought might have a simple solution is surprisingly complex. And Grumpy is right that in the end maybe we are best to just pay to keep things moving and keep the relationships positive. 

I suspect Carl wouldn't be up for splitting the costs, as he feels like it had nothing to do with him. However, if we pay for the replacements and the items did turn up in his workshop later, he might feel bad and refund us. And if they turned up somewhere at our place he would probably take them for his spares/repair kit and pay us back something if he can charge for using them elsewhere in the latter case.

mavenmim

Doozergirl said:

If you pay for something, it belongs to you.  If you store it on your property, it is in your care.  

If there is one main contractor being paid for everything then there might be a questionable line of responsibility, but with various contractors coming and going and being paid separately, the OP is main contractor.  

We're talking about a period of three years.  It could be anywhere by now.  Things become forgotten, someone could have wandered onto site and been opportunistic, anything.  

Ultimately, it all comes back to the OP really a matter of good will if someone else offers to pay towards it.  

We built our own house, we paid for the materials and we paid all the subcontractors.  I'd never be in any doubt as to what belonged to whom.  It was all mine!    If, as a ridiculous example, the plumbers took the boiler I'd paid for to use elsewhere, I'd be asking them for payment because it was mine, not because it was theirs.  I paid for it, it's mine.  

The question is only really arising because it has gone missing and there's no one to blame.

It isn't a period of 3 years, from what I have been told it went missing between when the inventory was checked 6 weeks ago, and when he returned to fit it a fortnight ago.

But you are right that if I don't know where they have gone, and don't have any sign of theft or a reason to blame anyone specific then there is little I can do about it except pay again.

DRP

If £1000 is holding up the job, and there is no one else who can be made to take responsibility, then just pay it. 

A drop in the ocean in the scheme of things. It’ll cost far more in delays and finding new workmen willing to continue the job. 

And hopefully a lesson learnt?

mavenmim

DRP said:

If £1000 is holding up the job, and there is no one else who can be made to take responsibility, then just pay it. 

A drop in the ocean in the scheme of things. It’ll cost far more in delays and finding new workmen willing to continue the job. 

And hopefully a lesson learnt?

Yeah, I agree that I'll have to pay up to keep things moving, and that relative to the the work we've had done it is a drop in the ocean. But I don't know what lesson I can learn from this experience specifically, given I don't really know what happened or how I could have prevented it - though I'd be open to suggestions. I don't think anyone could have predicted the pandemic interrupting work or the huge rises in material and labour costs this combined with Brexit would bring, or how this would put all the work out of sync due to the main contractor struggling to get trades.

That isn't to say I haven't learnt a lot from the process more broadly. I've learnt to be clearer about whether there is anything else required to do a job that has not been included in the quote (eg retaining walls) and to get it in writing that any changes to the quoted price will be agreed in advance. I would also want to think a lot more about the order we do work in, and what is contingent on something else, so things are organised and happen in the right order. I've also learnt to ask more questions before accepting increased specifications from structural engineers, as sometimes small changes (eg to the size of an opening, or position of a joist) can make a big difference; that an experienced architect is worth the expense because they pre-empt issues; and that we need to be more explicit about the main contractor being responsible for subcontractors that he appoints (from contracting the work, to getting them to turn up on time, to paying them and being responsible for the quality of the work).

I've also learnt to be grateful for honest builders/tradespeople who do quality work - as I've watched one of the companies that quoted on our work liquidate and start up with a new name leaving millions in unpaid debt and a trail of incomplete or poor quality work. And, despite all the delays and price increases, the work we have had done by our main contractor has been very good.

ThisIsWeird

Good lessons.

Yes, a good architect can be invaluable - often essential so the builder knows exactly what's required and expected. But the archi - and subsequently the builder - should surely have been able to ID issues like retaining walls being required? How did they miss that?!

And... inform your insurer that you are having work done. (Never occurred to me)

And... lock up valuable paid-for items, and don't let any sod near them.

Good luck with the rest of the work - one day you'll look back and grima...laugh.

Risteard

mavenmim said:

DRP said:

If £1000 is holding up the job, and there is no one else who can be made to take responsibility, then just pay it. 

A drop in the ocean in the scheme of things. It’ll cost far more in delays and finding new workmen willing to continue the job. 

And hopefully a lesson learnt?

Yeah, I agree that I'll have to pay up to keep things moving, and that relative to the the work we've had done it is a drop in the ocean. But I don't know what lesson I can learn from this experience specifically, given I don't really know what happened or how I could have prevented it - though I'd be open to suggestions. I don't think anyone could have predicted the pandemic interrupting work or the huge rises in material and labour costs this combined with Brexit would bring, or how this would put all the work out of sync due to the main contractor struggling to get trades.

That isn't to say I haven't learnt a lot from the process more broadly. I've learnt to be clearer about whether there is anything else required to do a job that has not been included in the quote (eg retaining walls) and to get it in writing that any changes to the quoted price will be agreed in advance. I would also want to think a lot more about the order we do work in, and what is contingent on something else, so things are organised and happen in the right order. I've also learnt to ask more questions before accepting increased specifications from structural engineers, as sometimes small changes (eg to the size of an opening, or position of a joist) can make a big difference; that an experienced architect is worth the expense because they pre-empt issues; and that we need to be more explicit about the main contractor being responsible for subcontractors that he appoints (from contracting the work, to getting them to turn up on time, to paying them and being responsible for the quality of the work).

I've also learnt to be grateful for honest builders/tradespeople who do quality work - as I've watched one of the companies that quoted on our work liquidate and start up with a new name leaving millions in unpaid debt and a trail of incomplete or poor quality work. And, despite all the delays and price increases, the work we have had done by our main contractor has been very good.

It's nothing to do with Brexit - it's almost completely a result of the totalitarian response to COVID.