Missing items during building work

Mistral001

I agree with the above about checking your insurance.  I have sneeky suspicion that the contractor here assumes that you have taken delivery of these items and hence they are in your possession and responsible for them.  There could be some logic in this as that your house insurance usually will cover items that are not owned by you but are mearly in your possesssion, such as items on hire purchase, or items that you have borrowed from someone else etc.

 

Grumpy_chap

Mistral001 said:

I agree with the above about checking your insurance. 

mavenmim said:

Carl did borrow some parts from our kit to use on another job about a year ago (as our building work was delayed by covid) 

Over what time period has this building work gone on and over what period could the £1k-worth missing items have vanished?
At least a year based on the above, but something up to three years if going right back to the COVID times.

That would be a difficult insurance claim as the OP would have to say that at some point over three years some items went missing from a polytunnel or shed to which three different companies of contractors and their staff had access (plus the OP / Family etc).  At one point in that period, one of the contractors cleared all the junk out to the skip.  Now we found the items worth around £1k are missing.

What excess would the OP have in any case?
What would be the impact on future premiums?
Did the OP declare that the property was undergoing building / refurbishment work? (Often required for home insurance.)
Did the OP change home insurers in that protracted period?  If so, which year and, hence, which insurer does the OP claim against?

mavenmim

Grumpy_chap said:

It sounds like this is going to be the OP's loss.

Three different contractors were employed by the OP.  
They had some shared access to an outbuilding and each stored equipment, tools, materials.
One of the contractors cleared out "rubbish" into the skip.
The next contractor came back and said a £1k thermostat that was wrapped in bubble wrap was missing.
The OP trusts all the contractors, but particularly the one who cleared the rubbish to the skip and the one who left the thermostat.

I think it is most likely the £1k item is in the skip.

We have had a very good look in the skip (which is only the smallest size, and was pretty full with rubble and other waste before all this). But we will certainly look again before it gets collected. I don't want to leave any stone unturned, especially if the alternative is paying a grand for kit we've already paid for.

mavenmim

Mistral001 said:

I agree with the above about checking your insurance.  I have sneeky suspicion that the contractor here assumes that you have taken delivery of these items and hence they are in your possession and responsible for them.  There could be some logic in this as that your house insurance usually will cover items that are not owned by you but are mearly in your possesssion, such as items on hire purchase, or items that you have borrowed from someone else etc.

Yes, this is exactly what the contractor has said.

mavenmim

Grumpy_chap said:
Over what time period has this building work gone on and over what period could the £1k-worth missing items have vanished?
At least a year based on the above, but something up to three years if going right back to the COVID times.

That would be a difficult insurance claim as the OP would have to say that at some point over three years some items went missing from a polytunnel or shed to which three different companies of contractors and their staff had access (plus the OP / Family etc).  At one point in that period, one of the contractors cleared all the junk out to the skip.  Now we found the items worth around £1k are missing.

What excess would the OP have in any case?
What would be the impact on future premiums?
Did the OP declare that the property was undergoing building / refurbishment work? (Often required for home insurance.)
Did the OP change home insurers in that protracted period?  If so, which year and, hence, which insurer does the OP claim against?

The pool kit was delivered during covid, and sat waiting to be fitted until the building was ready. The contractor checked all the items were in the order as he took it into the outbuilding six weeks ago, then two weeks ago found that some stuff was missing when he needed to use it. So it didn't go missing from the polytunnel, or during some period of years, or involve lots of people having access - the only people who have been in the building are one builder and his two staff, and one specialist plumber and his partner, plus myself and my husband to let them in and out.

My excess on home insurance is £200, but they exclude any loss or damage related to building work at the property - which I'm guessing might include fitting a pool in an outbuilding (though I'm assuming that the general exclusion for building/refurbishment work voiding the whole policy wouldn't apply, as we haven't had any work done in the actual house).

Grumpy_chap

For the parts of the pool kit that are now missing, does it actually matter?
I don't mean, does it matter that stuff worth £1k is missing.
These seem to be electronic items of some kind:

mavenmim said:

The parts he says are missing include a visually distinctive thermostat that was supposedly wrapped in red bubble wrap, a large filter, and a heat exchange gadget that is over a foot long with a digital keypad showing at the top. They were said to be together in a large cardboard box. 

These items were stored for some period of time in a poly tunnel, which may have got very hot at times inside and / or may not have been wholly weather tight against moisture ingress.

Then the items were moved to an outhouse where stuff may have been piled on them or got dusty or whatever.

It may just be best to simply replace and know you have new items actually installed rather than old items that may be underperforming in any case.

It sounds like you are having a very large amount of building works undertaken.  This is one of the bumps to be met from your contingency for the project.

You have pretty much said yourself that any theft would be pointless:

mavenmim said:

they aren't the kinds of things that would easily "walk" from a building site in someone's pocket or hidden amongst other items. They don't have a use for a generic builder or electrician, and I'm not sure they even have much retail value as they are parts for a specialist rehab spa pool - plus a lot of the cost is in the shipping as they are manufactured internationally.

So, that leaves disposed of by mistake or still somewhere in the outhouse or polytunnel.
Either way, for the sake of £1k, it is not worth expending days of your contractor's time searching.
The most pragmatic thing here is take this as an unfortunate hit and then make an apology to the contractor (was it Alex?) that is threatening to walk off the job.  Changing contractor part way through the work will impact you by far more than £1k.

ThisIsWeird

mavenmim said:

He says that "Risk and title for the pool transferred to you when the payment was made for the pool [2 years ago] so I’m afraid our insurance won’t cover this". So maybe one to check with our home insurance after all?

Tbh, I haven't a clue which party will end up liable via their insurance, you, Carl, or even Alex!

Yes, you do your bit - call your insurance and ask. As mentioned earlier, tho', if you hadn't informed your insurer that you were having work done on your house, they might use that as a get-out clause, even if you'd otherwise been covered. (I have to 'fess, it never occurred to me to inform my insurer before we had work done recently).

Do you have Legal Protection included in your policy? If so, call them up too - they'll give free legal advice. And pursue the issue if you need 'protecting' from a Carl claim,

Grumpy_chap

I realise I am going counter to the majority in this thread.  I am not doing so to be nasty but the OP needs to focus on what they can do to get this project moving forwards and complete as swiftly as possible.  All the while the project is being prolonged, costs (and stress) are only going to increase.

ThisIsWeird said:

Tbh, I haven't a clue which party will end up liable via their insurance, you, Carl, or even Alex!

We do know.  The OP said:

mavenmim said:

The pool kit was delivered during covid, and sat waiting to be fitted until the building was ready.

mavenmim said:

 "Risk and title for the pool transferred to you when the payment was made for the pool [2 years ago] 

It does not really matter what the items are, but the OP purchased some items a couple of years ago and kept them in storage.  Now the OP wants the items, they are not available.  This is not down to Alex, Ben or Carl to cover the loss.  It was down to the OP to take care of their possessions and it would be the OP that needed to insure the loss (or just pay for replacement).

These items went missing at some point in the 2 or 3 years.  Where are / could they be?

• Still in the shed somewhere but mislaid - not an insurance claim
• Discarded, in the skip or previously - not an insurance claim
• Stolen by a person unknown or by one of the contractors that the OP has granted access to the areas where the items were stored.  Possibly an insurance claim.  Has the OP reported the theft to the Police to obtain a crime reference number?  Likely to be the first thing required for an insurance claim.  Would reporting be a waste of Police time?

It seems the OP knows (in their heart) it was not theft anyway:

mavenmim said:

Yes, I agree that theft seems unlikely. 

Would an insurance claim for theft be dishonest in that case?


The only way to resolve this is for the OP to pay to replace the items, hope they are not on an extended lead time and get this job finished.  
A job that rolls on for many years is a pain for everyone concerned and just burns money.
The priority for the OP is getting the contractors to agree to finish the job now, given they are fed up with the situation and possible accusations:

mavenmim said:

Alex was off with covid when Carl came and discovered things were missing, and hasn't been back on site since* 

*and by the looks of things today, may only return to collect his equipment, as he took the hump when I asked if he had any advice about Carl's extra charges, and whether his insurance would cover a loss from the site - which is a whole other can of worms, as I've paid him to finish some work that remains outstanding.

Focus on what can be changed - the future - and get this whole job closed off as smoothly as possible.

ThisIsWeird

Grumpy_chap said:

I realise I am going counter to the majority in this thread.  I am not doing so to be nasty but the OP needs to focus on what they can do to get this project moving forwards and complete as swiftly as possible.  All the while the project is being prolonged, costs (and stress) are only going to increase.

ThisIsWeird said:

Tbh, I haven't a clue which party will end up liable via their insurance, you, Carl, or even Alex!

We do know.  The OP said:

mavenmim said:

The pool kit was delivered during covid, and sat waiting to be fitted until the building was ready.

mavenmim said:

 "Risk and title for the pool transferred to you when the payment was made for the pool [2 years ago] 

It does not really matter what the items are, but the OP purchased some items a couple of years ago and kept them in storage.  Now the OP wants the items, they are not available.  This is not down to Alex, Ben or Carl to cover the loss.  It was down to the OP to take care of their possessions and it would be the OP that needed to insure the loss (or just pay for replacement).

These items went missing at some point in the 2 or 3 years.  Where are / could they be?

• Still in the shed somewhere but mislaid - not an insurance claim
• Discarded, in the skip or previously - not an insurance claim
• Stolen by a person unknown or by one of the contractors that the OP has granted access to the areas where the items were stored.  Possibly an insurance claim.  Has the OP reported the theft to the Police to obtain a crime reference number?  Likely to be the first thing required for an insurance claim.  Would reporting be a waste of Police time?

It seems the OP knows (in their heart) it was not theft anyway:

mavenmim said:

Yes, I agree that theft seems unlikely. 

Would an insurance claim for theft be dishonest in that case?


The only way to resolve this is for the OP to pay to replace the items, hope they are not on an extended lead time and get this job finished.  
A job that rolls on for many years is a pain for everyone concerned and just burns money.
The priority for the OP is getting the contractors to agree to finish the job now, given they are fed up with the situation and possible accusations:

mavenmim said:

Alex was off with covid when Carl came and discovered things were missing, and hasn't been back on site since* 

*and by the looks of things today, may only return to collect his equipment, as he took the hump when I asked if he had any advice about Carl's extra charges, and whether his insurance would cover a loss from the site - which is a whole other can of worms, as I've paid him to finish some work that remains outstanding.

Focus on what can be changed - the future - and get this whole job closed off as smoothly as possible.

Very possibly, GrumpyC.

But "Risk and title for the pool transferred to you when the payment was made for the pool [2 years ago]" is asserted by Carl, and not the OP. And it obviously isn't as simple as that - there is a reasonable degree of responsibility in each situation. Say Carl just dropped these items off on the OP's doorstep while they were out - clearly he'd be largely responsible if they subsequently went missing. So what about if he dropped them off at the back door instead? Or in a shed? Where other folk have access.

I'm trying to think of a parallel - when we had an extension built recently, were we responsible for all the materials on site - which we had presumably paid for in staged payments? If so, then - phew - because I overlooked informing our insurance of the work taking place.

It may well come down to the minutia of the case - who said what, who asked for - and who agreed to - the storage. What access was agreed or implied, and to whom. Were these items specific & identifiable, paid for separately by the OP, or part of a 'package'. And, since the items are just 'missing', and theft not established fact, how on earth do you claim?

Yup - this is more uncertain than I first imagined.

Mavenmim, would Carl be up for a 50:50 split so you can all move on?

Doozergirl

If you pay for something, it belongs to you.  If you store it on your property, it is in your care.  

If there is one main contractor being paid for everything then there might be a questionable line of responsibility, but with various contractors coming and going and being paid separately, the OP is main contractor.  

We're talking about a period of three years.  It could be anywhere by now.  Things become forgotten, someone could have wandered onto site and been opportunistic, anything.  

Ultimately, it all comes back to the OP really a matter of good will if someone else offers to pay towards it.  

We built our own house, we paid for the materials and we paid all the subcontractors.  I'd never be in any doubt as to what belonged to whom.  It was all mine!    If, as a ridiculous example, the plumbers took the boiler I'd paid for to use elsewhere, I'd be asking them for payment because it was mine, not because it was theirs.  I paid for it, it's mine.  

The question is only really arising because it has gone missing and there's no one to blame.