Missing items during building work

mavenmim

We've had an outbuilding converted by a builder (I'll call him Alex). He and two employees did the structural work on the building, then he subcontracted the electricals to someone who he asked me to pay directly (I'll call him Ben). I separately paid someone I chose to do the plumbing/heating (I'll call him Carl). Carl brought all the kit down to the site a couple of months ago, but the building work wasn't ready so it was stored in the locked outbuilding until Alex and Ben said that their work was finished enough that he could return. Alex got one of his labourers to clear out all the rubbish and left over materials into the skip and our garage respectively so the site was tidy for Carl's return.

However, when Carl returned a fortnight ago he said that £1000 of his kit was missing, including some kind of fancy heat exchanger and a thermostat. We looked absolutely everywhere it could possibly have been put, but couldn't find it. We checked the skip and the garage, and every nook and cranny, but couldn't locate it. Carl now wants us to pay the £1000 for replacement parts before he can complete the work, as he says he is 100% sure he left his kit in the building. Alex says that nobody ever saw the missing kit Carl is claiming was there and has now gone, and that he isn't responsible for it.

It feels like some horrible game of cluedo where we stand to lose £1000. So I'm trying to understand who might be liable, or whether any insurance is likely to cover the loss.

We have CCTV that alerts us by text as vehicles arrive on site and leave, and we haven't had any strangers on site who could have accessed that building, as it is kept locked with a 5 point locking deadbolt that we have the only key for. The only people who have been in and out of the building are Alex and Carl and their respective employees. Although Ben and his team have also been in that building, Alex says that the timing was such that Ben's contractors didn't access it again after Carl's first visit until after he said the kit was missing, so Alex doesn't believe it was down to them (even though he has other reasons to feel frustrated with them as they haven't done a very good job, and their work still isn't finished).

I've known Alex for four years, and I believe him to be an honest and reliable guy. He'd never steal anything, and he'd never tolerate that from anyone in his team. His labourer may have thrown things away in error, or put them somewhere silly, but we have had a thorough look so that doesn't seem to be the solution.

Carl we have used for work several times over three years, and he has been very honest about getting a couple of parts replaced that were not sent in good condition or were missing from his order to the supplier. He also ended up with a long wasted journey and a day of his own and a colleague's time where he couldn't progress with our works due to the missing parts - and he'd clearly started the work with the expectation they would be there. So I don't think that he has stolen them - though it is slightly possible that he took them back with him to his workshop, rather than leaving them on site.

Ben has been a pain in the !!!!!!, sending different electricians every time (so I don't feel like I know them), and their work has been poor and remains incomplete, but they don't seem to have had access to that building during the key dates.

So it is hard to know whether the loss is down to theft, or misplacement, but it clearly isn't our fault and we obviously can't afford to pay again. I assumed our insurance would say that this was excluded from a normal household policy, so I asked Alex whether he thought the insurance he had taken out on the works would cover it (as we went through a checklist before starting the work that agreed insuring the site was his responsibility). However, he has taken offence and feels like I'm trying to blame him for the loss, and has refused to do any further work to finish the job or to communicate further. I have no idea what to do now, but it is making me feel very stressed and anxious - especially as we may now need to find a new builder to finish the work.

ThisIsWeird

What a horrible situation, where you just cannot tell if someone has miscalculated, is confused, or is light-fingered, or one of their employees disposed of items in error, or even if the home owner flogged off some parts on eBay.
Only kidding about the last one
The point is, no-one knows what happened (or perhaps someone does, but is not saying), so why should you - the most likely fully innocent party - be held to account for the loss?
The answer is, I understand - you cannot be. And shouldn't be.
I think the way to look at this is; once the items that you have paid for have been attached to the fabric of your house, then they are your responsibility, or that of your home insurance. Up until then, it remains that of the contractor as they have been left on 'their' work site. By all means you can call up your insurance co and confirm whether this is the case.
Had you paid for these items? And can you be more specific about what they are - eg, their size? Eg, if the 'heat exchanger' is a sizeable object like a Thermal Store, then surely no way has that been dumped by mistake, or been left behind at the guy's shop, or even stolen. That just leaves 'eBay' (kidding again )
I think it would be unfair for any of these guys to expect you to pay twice for this. You have home insurance - they should have site ditto.
If your insurance says 'no', and the plumber doesn't accept this and walks, so be it. Get someone else to finish the job (I know it's not easy), and post honest reviews of all the contractors. 
If your insurance astonishingly says 'yes, ok', then I'd claim for the sake of peace, and see if the plumber will cover or split the 'excess'. Just get the job finished and behind you.

Flugelhorn

does feel a bit foolish of Carl leaving them there if they are very expensive -i has he actually got receipts for these? he hasn't fitted them somewhere else on another job?

mavenmim

ThisIsWeird said:
I think the way to look at this is; once the items that you have paid for have been attached to the fabric of your house, then they are your responsibility, or that of your home insurance. Up until then, it remains that of the contractor as they have been left on 'their' work site. By all means you can call up your insurance co and confirm whether this is the case.
Had you paid for these items? And can you be more specific about what they are - eg, their size? Eg, if the 'heat exchanger' is a sizeable object like a Thermal Store, then surely no way has that been dumped by mistake, or been left behind at the guy's shop, or even stolen. That just leaves 'eBay' (kidding again )
I think it would be unfair for any of these guys to expect you to pay twice for this. You have home insurance - they should have site ditto.
If your insurance says 'no', and the plumber doesn't accept this and walks, so be it. Get someone else to finish the job (I know it's not easy), and post honest reviews of all the contractors. 
If your insurance astonishingly says 'yes, ok', then I'd claim for the sake of peace, and see if the plumber will cover or split the 'excess'. Just get the job finished and behind you.

The parts he says are missing include a visually distinctive thermostat that was supposedly wrapped in red bubble wrap, a large filter, and a heat exchange gadget that is over a foot long with a digital keypad showing at the top. They were said to be together in a large cardboard box. They don't sound like things that could be mistaken for rubbish and they aren't the kinds of things that would easily "walk" from a building site in someone's pocket or hidden amongst other items. They don't have a use for a generic builder or electrician, and I'm not sure they even have much retail value as they are parts for a specialist rehab spa pool - plus a lot of the cost is in the shipping as they are manufactured internationally.

Flugelhorn said:

does feel a bit foolish of Carl leaving them there if they are very expensive -i has he actually got receipts for these? he hasn't fitted them somewhere else on another job?

Carl did borrow some parts from our kit to use on another job about a year ago (as our building work was delayed by covid) but he says that he put everything together that he needed in the outbuilding ready for the final fitting. We know that he ordered a replacement for a couple of parts that were missing from the inventory at that point - so I do think he checked the inventory and had the parts he needed there at that time - he certainly drove a long way and started work a fortnight ago with the expectation they were there. But it isn't impossible that he took them with him and got them muddled up with another job in his workshop. Though it also isn't impossible that Alex or his labourer moved them, and they'll turn up somewhere later down the line. Or perhaps someone has stolen them. I've no way of knowing for sure. I can understand that from Carl's point of view, if he thought he left them in the care of Alex and they were then gone, that would be really frustrating and he'd want to charge again. But I'm reassured that other people don't think I should be paying again.

twopenny

Just curious. You said "the building work wasn't ready so it was stored in the locked outbuilding"

If the outbuilding was locked how did anyone get in there to remove the stuff stored?

Did he state to you what was left and how important it was?

It was his decision that it was safe in a locked building. His responsibility not yours. And if you've paid for the items and in his possession  then surely he is responsible for keeping them safe.

I'd suggest that he is responsible for taking care of someone elses possessions on that scenario.

Tough one though because you don't want to fall out with anyone while the work is incomplete. A lot of tactful negotiations and conversations to establish what may have 'legitimately' happened but essentially Carl should be the one making them.

ThisIsWeird

I doubt very much that Alex, Ben, or Carl are criminally responsible for this; ie have either stolen, or claim to have had stolen, these items. It is very unusual for one tradesperson to do such a thing to another - they are generally not only honest in that regard, but also know the severe reputational consequence of doing anything so underhand.

I suspect the same will apply to their subbies, but that might come down to how well the main characters know the folk they are taking on. But I would still put the chances of it being actual theft as the least likely explanation - again because folk are generally honest, but there's also the 'obviousness' of doing such a thing, as if it would pass unnoticed!

What does that leave? A confused Carl, who has been taking some parts back and forth to use on other jobs. But, man, what a klutz he'd have to be to lose track of such obvious and unusual items! Or, they've been chucked out in a clearance. Possible, but surely only if the worker was very new to this and is very naive. Still unlikely.

Soooo, we don't know. And likely never will.

I suggest, therefore, this comes down to whoever is 'contractually' responsible; you check your insurance, Carl checks his, and almost certainly one of you will be covered (my money is on Carl). But for Carl to expect you to personally cough up for this is very poor, I think.

mavenmim

twopenny said:

Just curious. You said "the building work wasn't ready so it was stored in the locked outbuilding"

If the outbuilding was locked how did anyone get in there to remove the stuff stored?

Did he state to you what was left and how important it was?

It was a building that had reached a point it was fully glazed and had a secure locking door. We had the only keys, and would unlock the building on the days when tradesmen needed access - most recently, when Alex and his team went in there to do the decorating and tiling, and when Carl came to connect up the pool. Our CCTV shows everyone that arrives and leaves, and you can't get to that building without going past it. Plus the door is in plain sight of where I work almost all the time; its about 2 metres from the window in my little office nook where I spend most of my time doing zoom calls and computer-based work. It really seems an unlikely target.

Carl had left stuff on site throughout - he left the whole kit to build the pool in our polytunnel for the whole pandemic on the basis he didn't have storage space, but the building wasn't ready to install it (I posted on this forum about some of the problems in the construction of the building a couple of years ago, which led to significant delays). So it could easily have been taken at that point, as the polytunnel has no locks - and we had worried also about the impact of the intense heat and light - but he was insistent that he had nowhere else to store "our stuff" (the components he supplied that would be used to build our pool). However, it was only after Carl started the installation and found that the liner had been made to the wrong dimensions that he put all his stuff into the converted outbuilding, whilst a replacement liner was delivered. When he returned with the new liner, he said the other kit he needed was no longer where he had left it, so all of us searched the whole site in case it had been misplaced, but found nothing.

CSI_Yorkshire

mavenmim said:

twopenny said:

Just curious. You said "the building work wasn't ready so it was stored in the locked outbuilding"

If the outbuilding was locked how did anyone get in there to remove the stuff stored?

Did he state to you what was left and how important it was?

It was a building that had reached a point it was fully glazed and had a secure locking door. We had the only keys, and would unlock the building on the days when tradesmen needed access - most recently, when Alex and his team went in there to do the decorating and tiling, and when Carl came to connect up the pool. Our CCTV shows everyone that arrives and leaves, and you can't get to that building without going past it. Plus the door is in plain sight of where I work almost all the time; its about 2 metres from the window in my little office nook where I spend most of my time doing zoom calls and computer-based work. It really seems an unlikely target.

Carl had left stuff on site throughout - he left the whole kit to build the pool in our polytunnel for the whole pandemic on the basis he didn't have storage space, but the building wasn't ready to install it (I posted on this forum about some of the problems in the construction of the building a couple of years ago, which led to significant delays). So it could easily have been taken at that point, as the polytunnel has no locks - and we had worried also about the impact of the intense heat and light - but he was insistent that he had nowhere else to store "our stuff" (the components he supplied that would be used to build our pool). However, it was only after Carl started the installation and found that the liner had been made to the wrong dimensions that he put all his stuff into the converted outbuilding, whilst a replacement liner was delivered. When he returned with the new liner, he said the other kit he needed was no longer where he had left it, so all of us searched the whole site in case it had been misplaced, but found nothing.

Is that "could have been taken" as in you don't know that it wasn't? or "could have been taken" as in it was easier, but you know that it was definitely put in the outbuilding?

mavenmim

ThisIsWeird said:

I doubt very much that Alex, Ben, or Carl are criminally responsible for this; ie have either stolen, or claim to have had stolen, these items. It is very unusual for one tradesperson to do such a thing to another - they are generally not only honest in that regard, but also know the severe reputational consequence of doing anything so underhand.

I suspect the same will apply to their subbies, but that might come down to how well the main characters know the folk they are taking on. But I would still put the chances of it being actual theft as the least likely explanation - again because folk are generally honest, but there's also the 'obviousness' of doing such a thing, as if it would pass unnoticed!

What does that leave? A confused Carl, who has been taking some parts back and forth to use on other jobs. But, man, what a klutz he'd have to be to lose track of such obvious and unusual items! Or, they've been chucked out in a clearance. Possible, but surely only if the worker was very new to this and is very naive. Still unlikely.

Soooo, we don't know. And likely never will.

I suggest, therefore, this comes down to whoever is 'contractually' responsible; you check your insurance, Carl checks his, and almost certainly one of you will be covered (my money is on Carl). But for Carl to expect you to personally cough up for this is very poor, I think.

Yes, I agree that theft seems unlikely. But so do the other explanations. Alex only had 2 long-term members of his team on site during that period. One was his second-in-command who helped us search when Carl said stuff was missing. The other a younger less experienced labourer, Dave, who they tease for not having much common sense, so the initial story we got was "maybe Dave put all the boxes in the skip" or "maybe Dave thought it was stuff for the electricians and put it out the way of the tiling". Alex was off with covid when Carl came and discovered things were missing, and hasn't been back on site since* and I haven't seen Dave since the day he did the clearing up - though Alex told my husband that he phoned Dave to check, and he doesn't remember any such items either. So I can only think that either the items will turn up eventually, having been put somewhere very out of the way, or that they got cleared out with rubbish, or taken back by Carl, or were not there in the first place.

I've asked Carl if he can send me an inventory and ideally some photos of the missing items, and to confirm that he was sure the items concerned were in our outbuilding and couldn't possibly have gone back to his workshop or have been missing from the order or borrowed for other work. He's sent me an inventory, and says he never took any items off site (except for one grille during the pandemic to use on another job, which he subsequently replaced). He says that "Risk and title for the pool transferred to you when the payment was made for the pool [2 years ago] so I’m afraid our insurance won’t cover this". So maybe one to check with our home insurance after all?

*and by the looks of things today, may only return to collect his equipment, as he took the hump when I asked if he had any advice about Carl's extra charges, and whether his insurance would cover a loss from the site - which is a whole other can of worms, as I've paid him to finish some work that remains outstanding.

Grumpy_chap

It sounds like this is going to be the OP's loss.

Three different contractors were employed by the OP.  
They had some shared access to an outbuilding and each stored equipment, tools, materials.
One of the contractors cleared out "rubbish" into the skip.
The next contractor came back and said a £1k thermostat that was wrapped in bubble wrap was missing.
The OP trusts all the contractors, but particularly the one who cleared the rubbish to the skip and the one who left the thermostat.

I think it is most likely the £1k item is in the skip.

mavenmim

CSI_Yorkshire said:

Is that "could have been taken" as in you don't know that it wasn't? or "could have been taken" as in it was easier, but you know that it was definitely put in the outbuilding?

Carl says the box was amongst the stuff he took from the polytunnel to the outbuilding, and told us that he'd checked the inventory of items when the liner was the wrong size, to make sure nothing else was omitted from the order. So I was meaning that it was easier but didn't happen at the earlier timepoint.

However, you have prompted me to check with Carl that he checked exactly what was in the box at that timepoint, and not just that he'd moved the box that he assumed contained all the technical gubbins when he had moved all the other stuff.