Dispute over LVT flooring

tempsc

Hello all.

Got a situation going on here which I would value some advice on. I had an expensive LVT tiles flooring put down some months ago. In truth I've never been happy with it and have had several meetings with the fitters where they have attempted to sort out the problem. More recently, the fitter came back and his attitude had totally changed. He was quite aggressive and told he me was finished with it, tell me to F off and that I didn't know what I was talking about before storming out of the house. This after I had challenged him that he had used the wrong adhesive for both the product and sub floor - this proven by the technical product data sheet from the manufacturers. He refused to read the sheet before storming out. So I'm now out of pocket to the tune of more than £1000 for the floor which we bought and supplied to the fitter to install, the cost of installation at more than £1400 and more likely than not, the cost of removing it all and finding someone that can do a decent job which I don't have figures for as yet. I have also spoken to a flooring consultant that could head over and produce a report of everything that's wrong - it's more than just the adhesive problem - to get a fully independent report written up.

The quandary I'm in here is that I assume I could go through small claims to sort this out and I'm slightly nervous that if I contact the fitter again in an attempt to discuss it or even use a mediator, he may just see the writing on the wall and dissolve his business prior leaving me high and dry.

Another issue I have is that before storming out of the house, he asked me to show him the invoice for the job. I couldn't get to it before he left but on closer examination, it has been written up for another address. We didn't notice this before paying him when originally completed. I'm concerned that he may try and deny ever having done the job in the first place which undeniably he did as I have a lot of video footage from the Ring doorbell.

So. A bit of a complicated issue I have and would really value some sage advice on possible next steps.

Thanks in advance to all.

JetpackVelociraptor

Get your independent report done first, and assuming that the report agrees that it's faulty then you can take him to court and proceed with a claim. Make sure you're using someone who has experience as an expert witness in court, rather than just someone who thinks they'll get some work out of it. They may be called upon to defend what they've written.

You haven't mentioned what's wrong with the floor or the fitting of it, or why you were confronting the fitter over the type of adhesive he was using. Has the adhesive failed?

With regards to the invoice, is it a typo in the address? He couldn't reasonably claim that he hasn't done the work when you have, presumably, some written record in emails or texts relating to your ongoing conversation with him about it. You certainly have proof that you've paid him. If he's running it as a limited company you can check his details on companies house and see what money is in the business. If he's doing okay he's unlikely to dissolve the company over a £2400 bill.

tempsc

Thanks Jetpack. 

Yes, as the wrong adhesive was used, the tiles are beginning to lift and when 'tapped' is obvious that they are not bonded down. Ref the consultant, they charge £1000 + travel expenses to prepare the report which I'm nervous about throwing more money after bad if you know what I mean. Concerning the values involved, the £2400 would just cover what has to be written off. I would then have to but a new floor and have it fitted which I would assume would involve another £2-3000 maybe? Can I make a comprehensive claim on all the above in this situation? Should I suggest he claims on his business insurance maybe? I'm war of this whole situation not ending well.

gwynlas

If he was a reputable fitter for K dean or A tico most will not fit the product unless they have boarded out the sub floor. Are yours laid directly onto screed? The adhesive should remain tacky for a long time so the tiles should be able to be lifted and refitted. If there is a genuine problem this should be fairly obvious and you could issue a letter before claim inn the hope of geting a refund. Actually persuing a claim is possibly more trouble than it is worth especially if you engage the services of an expert.

tempsc

gwynlas said:

If he was a reputable fitter for K dean or A tico most will not fit the product unless they have boarded out the sub floor. Are yours laid directly onto screed? The adhesive should remain tacky for a long time so the tiles should be able to be lifted and refitted. If there is a genuine problem this should be fairly obvious and you could issue a letter before claim inn the hope of geting a refund. Actually persuing a claim is possibly more trouble than it is worth especially if you engage the services of an expert.

The issue was that the self levelling latex wasn't fully dry in my opinion. That's more difficult to prove I guess as it was put down in March.  A tico PS adhesive was used but as I have underfloor heating, the spec sheet says it should have been A tico HT? So, although the tiles are lifting, probably as the latex (Pr Flo) wasn't 100% dry, which is difficult to prove, what I can prove is that they used the wrong adhesive for the job as they wrote to me listing all the products they used. Maybe the new contractors can lift the existing tiles and relay? I'm not sure what the options are.

Grumpy_chap

I feel for the OP but they probably have to right this off as a loss.
These Karndean and similar floors are really something of a image over quality product.  They need hopelessly pure sub bases and have no depth or underlay to take up any imperfections.  Totally unrealistic.  The sooner they are called out on this the better.
We learned this the hard way and gave the whole job up as a lost cause simply laying carpet over it.  Turns out a sub-standard Karndean floor is quite a good base for making even cheap carpet look respectable, so every cloud does have a silver lining.

Bradden

Grumpy_chap said:

I feel for the OP but they probably have to right this off as a loss.
These Karndean and similar floors are really something of a image over quality product.  They need hopelessly pure sub bases and have no depth or underlay to take up any imperfections.  Totally unrealistic.  The sooner they are called out on this the better.
We learned this the hard way and gave the whole job up as a lost cause simply laying carpet over it.  Turns out a sub-standard Karndean floor is quite a good base for making even cheap carpet look respectable, so every cloud does have a silver lining.

Did you use an approved fitter. In my experience from the retail side I've found karndean to be excellent at after sales.. it's their reputation. The Op hasn't said what brand they purchased but it may be worth speaking to them if they used an approved fitter.

tetrarch

Grumpy_chap said:

I feel for the OP but they probably have to right this off as a loss.
These Karndean and similar floors are really something of a image over quality product.  They need hopelessly pure sub bases and have no depth or underlay to take up any imperfections.  Totally unrealistic.  

Hi GC,

I was planning on doing my entire downstairs in Amtico Spacia. About 110sq m in one continuous covering over a single pour of SLC. Sub floor is UFH in an 80mm screed

Until I read this thread I had assumed that this would be the ideal subsurface. My past (20yr) experience of a self-laid Amtico bathroom floor was very positive.

Should I abandon this idea or is there a protocol I need to follow to ensure that the boards go down properly, first time?

Regards

Tet

Grumpy_chap

Bradden said:

Did you use an approved fitter. 

Yes.
All laid by an approved fitter who charged a fortune for preparing the floor / subbase before laying.
We did pursue until we simply gave up and then laid the carpet. 
It was a few years back now - the carpet still looks good, though.

tetrarch said:  

Hi GC,

I was planning on doing my entire downstairs in Amtico Spacia. About 110sq m in one continuous covering over a single pour of SLC. Sub floor is UFH in an 80mm screed

Until I read this thread I had assumed that this would be the ideal subsurface. My past (20yr) experience of a self-laid Amtico bathroom floor was very positive.

Should I abandon this idea or is there a protocol I need to follow to ensure that the boards go down properly, first time?

Regards

Tet

There must be people who make a success of the LVT products.
I have simply never met any.

From my experience, the fundamental problem is that the LVT product is "solid" and only 3 mm or less in thickness.  If the sub-base is then anything less than perfect, the boards don't sit flush but one is proud of the next.  The "proper" (as per instruction) way to lay the LVT is direct to the floor with no underlay of any kind.
We also found there was no depth to take up any variance at the boundary either, so if the skirting or door sill is not perfect, that leaves unsightly gaps also.

This "thin and solid" flooring is entirely unforgiving and quite unusual:

• Carpet (obviously) is flexible in itself and has a thickness to it (even carpet tiles) and usually an underlay
• Floor tiles have enough thickness of cement / adhesive to press down and take minor intolerances in the sub base.
• Lino usually has an inbuilt foam below the wear layer.
• Wooden flooring is laid on a rather firm foam support base

It really is, in my opinion, a fundamental flaw that the LVT products require such a perfect floor.  If you had a floor that was good enough, you would probably not want to cover it anyway.

PHK

tetrarch said:

Grumpy_chap said:

I feel for the OP but they probably have to right this off as a loss.
These Karndean and similar floors are really something of a image over quality product.  They need hopelessly pure sub bases and have no depth or underlay to take up any imperfections.  Totally unrealistic.  

Hi GC,

I was planning on doing my entire downstairs in Amtico Spacia. About 110sq m in one continuous covering over a single pour of SLC. Sub floor is UFH in an 80mm screed

Until I read this thread I had assumed that this would be the ideal subsurface. My past (20yr) experience of a self-laid Amtico bathroom floor was very positive.

Should I abandon this idea or is there a protocol I need to follow to ensure that the boards go down properly, first time?

Regards

Tet

In my opinion LVT is unsuitable for most cases.  It's basically a cosmetic layer on top of the actual floor. 

I think it's a triumph of marketing over reality. 

 Putting luxury in the name is debatable . 

JetpackVelociraptor

Okay, so I can't speak to the specific technical issues as I know nothing about this type of flooring.

@tempsc £1000 is way, way too much to pay someone just to write a report on the issue when your current total cost is just £2400. Find a cheaper expert if you think it's going to end in court, or DIY it.

"I would then have to but a new floor and have it fitted which I would assume would involve another £2-3000 maybe? Can I make a comprehensive claim on all the above in this situation?"

Your claim isn't for the faulty floor plus an entire new floor, because in that scenario you would be getting the floor for free! You were happy to pay £2400 to have an LVT tiled floor. In an ideal world you shouldn't be left out of pocket and should receive your floor for for £2400. Therefore the maximum you could claim for would be £2400, and that only if the materials were ruined or taken away. If the materials are still usable you'd be claiming for whatever additional work you'll have to pay for to fix it.

What I'd do in your situation is get someone else in with a good reputation and get them to quote for the work required to fix the problem. Better yet, get three quotes from three different people and pick one that seems knowledgeable and isn't the cheapest. The value of that quote, including any additional materials required to do the exact same job, is the total value of your claim against the contractor who already did the work.

It's not up to you how he pays the money, whether he does so through an insurance claim or just pays, so I would not mention it. It's his insurance to claim on, not yours. However unless it's a very small operation that's already doing badly, I can't imagine it would make sense for him to close his business down for that amount of money.

A few questions that come to mind, that you might want to think on. What is the usual effect of underfloor heating on the type of the adhesive that the tiler used, does it cause it to fail? I presume it's obvious that there is underfloor heating, or that you informed the tiler of it if it isn't obvious. Evidence of that would be useful. Why do you think the self-levelling compound didn't set, and was this laid by the same tiler? Finally, are you absolutely certain that you haven't done anything that could have caused the issue - for eg using the floor before the adhesive had set, overloading it, flood damage, excessive heat etc?