Need help regarding diamonds sold to a shop please.

momtotwo87

Hi, 
A family member took a 2 diamond ring and a sapphire & diamond ring to a shop to sell them. They were told the diamonds were cubic zirconia and the sapphire was a coloured stone. They were set in 9ct gold, so they were given £100 for the gold and that was it. The family member remembered that they had 2 valuations (on paper) for the rings and were told by different companies over the years that they were diamonds (they took them to be sold at auction but changed their mind, and then a few different companies to have them valued over the years- from 2003 up to now). 

The valuation from 1995 for the one ring was £450 and it says it was for insurance valuation only, this was from a diamond specialist shop who tested them properly with the machine. 

The shop owner who paid £100 for the gold (and kept the ‘cubic zirconia’ and ‘coloured stone’) claims that the insurance valuation is generally 3 times it’s real value, and that the valuation is meaningless as it doesn’t have the diamond weight on it. At the time of sale in the shop, the shop owner looked at the diamonds with an eye glass, and didn’t use a diamond testing machine on them (as they have been done previously- several times) but he claims that he did.

Can anyone please help us and explain what the insurance valuation is actually worth, and what my family member can do to sort this out please? They’ve got the one paper valuation but are trying to find the other one too, (that said the sapphire ring was worth £350). The shop owner didn’t give them a receipt when they bought it for £100 and it wasn’t rung up in a till either- the money was kept in a huge bag under the counter so it looks like they may be doing this illegally too, and they’re not registered with companies house either. They have a shop and look legitimate. 

When I searched online for a diamond inflation calculator, for the one ring alone (with 2 diamonds and worth £450) was worth about £1000, and that didn’t include the cost of the gold either.

Thank you in advance for any help you can give.

PHK

For jewellery the insurance valuation is not the same as how much you can sell it for. 

The valuation is how much it would cost to make a replacement as close as possible to the original. Unless the item is mass produced and easily available.

So the valuation is generally more than it would have cost to buy and more than you would get for selling it. (Unless it's a mass produced item)

I have to say you are right to be a Little suspicious. The shop may be eccentric or they may be not putting things through the books. 

I don't know if you have any rights other than to take legal action if you believe you weren't given a fair price.

tightauldgit

I'm fairly sure (but happy to be corrected) that when you are selling something it's up to you to know what its worth and what you want to get for it. If you've accepted £100 for it then you've sold it. You can go back to the shop and ask if they will reverse the transaction if you are unhappy with it but other than that I dont think you have many rights. 

eskbanker

momtotwo87 said:

The shop owner didn’t give them a receipt when they bought it for £100 and it wasn’t rung up in a till either- the money was kept in a huge bag under the counter so it looks like they may be doing this illegally too, and they’re not registered with companies house either. They have a shop and look legitimate.

I'm not aware of any legislation that forces a shop owner to use a till or to register with Companies House?  If the business turns enough over to fall into VAT territory then that would impose more controls around record-keeping and receipts though, and there might be something specific to gold dealers perhaps, what are you thinking of?

Undervalued

momtotwo87 said:

Hi, 
A family member took a 2 diamond ring and a sapphire & diamond ring to a shop to sell them. They were told the diamonds were cubic zirconia and the sapphire was a coloured stone. They were set in 9ct gold, so they were given £100 for the gold and that was it. The family member remembered that they had 2 valuations (on paper) for the rings and were told by different companies over the years that they were diamonds (they took them to be sold at auction but changed their mind, and then a few different companies to have them valued over the years- from 2003 up to now). 

The valuation from 1995 for the one ring was £450 and it says it was for insurance valuation only, this was from a diamond specialist shop who tested them properly with the machine. 

The shop owner who paid £100 for the gold (and kept the ‘cubic zirconia’ and ‘coloured stone’) claims that the insurance valuation is generally 3 times it’s real value, and that the valuation is meaningless as it doesn’t have the diamond weight on it. At the time of sale in the shop, the shop owner looked at the diamonds with an eye glass, and didn’t use a diamond testing machine on them (as they have been done previously- several times) but he claims that he did.

Can anyone please help us and explain what the insurance valuation is actually worth, and what my family member can do to sort this out please? They’ve got the one paper valuation but are trying to find the other one too, (that said the sapphire ring was worth £350). The shop owner didn’t give them a receipt when they bought it for £100 and it wasn’t rung up in a till either- the money was kept in a huge bag under the counter so it looks like they may be doing this illegally too, and they’re not registered with companies house either. They have a shop and look legitimate. 

When I searched online for a diamond inflation calculator, for the one ring alone (with 2 diamonds and worth £450) was worth about £1000, and that didn’t include the cost of the gold either.

Thank you in advance for any help you can give.

If the family member "remembered" all of this then why did they accept the much lower offer? Particularly as they have been valued a few times in the last twenty years.

As a general principle never take advice from somebody who is selling (or in this case wants to buy)!

Making a low offer is not a crime. Deliberately misleading might be, under certain circumstances, but that is going to be almost impossible to prove.

Much of the art and antiques business revolves around spotting something of value that others have overlooked. What seems to have happened here is that the family member has forgotten all the research that had been done. Nothing stopped them from saying "I think about it and maybe come back next week". Why didn't they?

Buying and selling in cash is not illegal (in itself) and is still commonplace in some fields. Only limited companies are registered at companies house, sole traders and partnerships are not. Again noting illegal in itself.

momtotwo87

Undervalued said:

momtotwo87 said:

Hi, 
A family member took a 2 diamond ring and a sapphire & diamond ring to a shop to sell them. They were told the diamonds were cubic zirconia and the sapphire was a coloured stone. They were set in 9ct gold, so they were given £100 for the gold and that was it. The family member remembered that they had 2 valuations (on paper) for the rings and were told by different companies over the years that they were diamonds (they took them to be sold at auction but changed their mind, and then a few different companies to have them valued over the years- from 2003 up to now). 

The valuation from 1995 for the one ring was £450 and it says it was for insurance valuation only, this was from a diamond specialist shop who tested them properly with the machine. 

The shop owner who paid £100 for the gold (and kept the ‘cubic zirconia’ and ‘coloured stone’) claims that the insurance valuation is generally 3 times it’s real value, and that the valuation is meaningless as it doesn’t have the diamond weight on it. At the time of sale in the shop, the shop owner looked at the diamonds with an eye glass, and didn’t use a diamond testing machine on them (as they have been done previously- several times) but he claims that he did.

Can anyone please help us and explain what the insurance valuation is actually worth, and what my family member can do to sort this out please? They’ve got the one paper valuation but are trying to find the other one too, (that said the sapphire ring was worth £350). The shop owner didn’t give them a receipt when they bought it for £100 and it wasn’t rung up in a till either- the money was kept in a huge bag under the counter so it looks like they may be doing this illegally too, and they’re not registered with companies house either. They have a shop and look legitimate. 

When I searched online for a diamond inflation calculator, for the one ring alone (with 2 diamonds and worth £450) was worth about £1000, and that didn’t include the cost of the gold either.

Thank you in advance for any help you can give.

If the family member "remembered" all of this then why did they accept the much lower offer? Particularly as they have been valued a few times in the last twenty years.

As a general principle never take advice from somebody who is selling (or in this case wants to buy)!

Making a low offer is not a crime. Deliberately misleading might be, under certain circumstances, but that is going to be almost impossible to prove.

Much of the art and antiques business revolves around spotting something of value that others have overlooked. What seems to have happened here is that the family member has forgotten all the research that had been done. Nothing stopped them from saying "I think about it and maybe come back next week". Why didn't they?

Buying and selling in cash is not illegal (in itself) and is still commonplace in some fields. Only limited companies are registered at companies house, sole traders and partnerships are not. Again noting illegal in itself.

They’ve had a lot going on in their life recently- they lost a close family member, so their head has been all over the place. The last valuation they had was probably from about 15 years ago (it was a verbal valuation). It was only after sitting and thinking it over that they remembered. 

The seller is selling thousands and thousands of pounds on Facebook of gold and diamonds every week. IMHO I think they’re avoiding paying tax on this.

user1977

momtotwo87 said:

Undervalued said:

momtotwo87 said:

Hi, 
A family member took a 2 diamond ring and a sapphire & diamond ring to a shop to sell them. They were told the diamonds were cubic zirconia and the sapphire was a coloured stone. They were set in 9ct gold, so they were given £100 for the gold and that was it. The family member remembered that they had 2 valuations (on paper) for the rings and were told by different companies over the years that they were diamonds (they took them to be sold at auction but changed their mind, and then a few different companies to have them valued over the years- from 2003 up to now). 

The valuation from 1995 for the one ring was £450 and it says it was for insurance valuation only, this was from a diamond specialist shop who tested them properly with the machine. 

The shop owner who paid £100 for the gold (and kept the ‘cubic zirconia’ and ‘coloured stone’) claims that the insurance valuation is generally 3 times it’s real value, and that the valuation is meaningless as it doesn’t have the diamond weight on it. At the time of sale in the shop, the shop owner looked at the diamonds with an eye glass, and didn’t use a diamond testing machine on them (as they have been done previously- several times) but he claims that he did.

Can anyone please help us and explain what the insurance valuation is actually worth, and what my family member can do to sort this out please? They’ve got the one paper valuation but are trying to find the other one too, (that said the sapphire ring was worth £350). The shop owner didn’t give them a receipt when they bought it for £100 and it wasn’t rung up in a till either- the money was kept in a huge bag under the counter so it looks like they may be doing this illegally too, and they’re not registered with companies house either. They have a shop and look legitimate. 

When I searched online for a diamond inflation calculator, for the one ring alone (with 2 diamonds and worth £450) was worth about £1000, and that didn’t include the cost of the gold either.

Thank you in advance for any help you can give.

If the family member "remembered" all of this then why did they accept the much lower offer? Particularly as they have been valued a few times in the last twenty years.

As a general principle never take advice from somebody who is selling (or in this case wants to buy)!

Making a low offer is not a crime. Deliberately misleading might be, under certain circumstances, but that is going to be almost impossible to prove.

Much of the art and antiques business revolves around spotting something of value that others have overlooked. What seems to have happened here is that the family member has forgotten all the research that had been done. Nothing stopped them from saying "I think about it and maybe come back next week". Why didn't they?

Buying and selling in cash is not illegal (in itself) and is still commonplace in some fields. Only limited companies are registered at companies house, sole traders and partnerships are not. Again noting illegal in itself.

IMHO I think they’re avoiding paying tax on this.

How would you know that? Even if they are, it doesn't mean anything about your relative's rights.

Undervalued

momtotwo87 said:

Undervalued said:

momtotwo87 said:

Hi, 
A family member took a 2 diamond ring and a sapphire & diamond ring to a shop to sell them. They were told the diamonds were cubic zirconia and the sapphire was a coloured stone. They were set in 9ct gold, so they were given £100 for the gold and that was it. The family member remembered that they had 2 valuations (on paper) for the rings and were told by different companies over the years that they were diamonds (they took them to be sold at auction but changed their mind, and then a few different companies to have them valued over the years- from 2003 up to now). 

The valuation from 1995 for the one ring was £450 and it says it was for insurance valuation only, this was from a diamond specialist shop who tested them properly with the machine. 

The shop owner who paid £100 for the gold (and kept the ‘cubic zirconia’ and ‘coloured stone’) claims that the insurance valuation is generally 3 times it’s real value, and that the valuation is meaningless as it doesn’t have the diamond weight on it. At the time of sale in the shop, the shop owner looked at the diamonds with an eye glass, and didn’t use a diamond testing machine on them (as they have been done previously- several times) but he claims that he did.

Can anyone please help us and explain what the insurance valuation is actually worth, and what my family member can do to sort this out please? They’ve got the one paper valuation but are trying to find the other one too, (that said the sapphire ring was worth £350). The shop owner didn’t give them a receipt when they bought it for £100 and it wasn’t rung up in a till either- the money was kept in a huge bag under the counter so it looks like they may be doing this illegally too, and they’re not registered with companies house either. They have a shop and look legitimate. 

When I searched online for a diamond inflation calculator, for the one ring alone (with 2 diamonds and worth £450) was worth about £1000, and that didn’t include the cost of the gold either.

Thank you in advance for any help you can give.

If the family member "remembered" all of this then why did they accept the much lower offer? Particularly as they have been valued a few times in the last twenty years.

As a general principle never take advice from somebody who is selling (or in this case wants to buy)!

Making a low offer is not a crime. Deliberately misleading might be, under certain circumstances, but that is going to be almost impossible to prove.

Much of the art and antiques business revolves around spotting something of value that others have overlooked. What seems to have happened here is that the family member has forgotten all the research that had been done. Nothing stopped them from saying "I think about it and maybe come back next week". Why didn't they?

Buying and selling in cash is not illegal (in itself) and is still commonplace in some fields. Only limited companies are registered at companies house, sole traders and partnerships are not. Again noting illegal in itself.

They’ve had a lot going on in their life recently- they lost a close family member, so their head has been all over the place. The last valuation they had was probably from about 15 years ago (it was a verbal valuation). It was only after sitting and thinking it over that they remembered. 

The seller is selling thousands and thousands of pounds on Facebook of gold and diamonds every week. IMHO I think they’re avoiding paying tax on this.

You may be right but that is a matter for HMRC. It doesn't in any way help your relative get the jewellery back or get any additional money.

eskbanker

momtotwo87 said:
The seller is selling thousands and thousands of pounds on Facebook of gold and diamonds every week. IMHO I think they’re avoiding paying tax on this.

As above, that's irrelevant speculation, but have the items in question been offered for sale, and if so, how were they described (and priced)?

momtotwo87

They haven’t offered them for sale as they destroyed the ring in front of them (before they’d even agreed to sell it to them). I know there’s nothing they can do, so I’ll just tell them that. 

Thank you all for your help.

Okell

momtotwo87 said:

They haven’t offered them for sale as they destroyed the ring in front of them (before they’d even agreed to sell it to them). I know there’s nothing they can do, so I’ll just tell them that. 

Thank you all for your help.

So the buyer "destroyed the ring in front of" your relative before they'd agreed to sell it?

Really?

Sounds like an issue for the police.  And the insurance valuation might come into play...

Again, really?