Discrmination because you don't work in a recognised professions that can countersign passport photo

frank1978

I was just wondering why people who don't work in or have not worked in one of the "respected" professions listed can't sign to confirm someone's identity for a passport. To me, it's implying that if you work in a low-paying job such as a cleaner or checkout operator, you're not a person of good standing and cannot be trusted. Or even because you don't have any employment, that could be the result of a disability, and you've been put at an unfair advantage and don't have the same rights because you don't have a job.

There are also people who need a countersigner for a first-time passport, and due to certain circumstances, such as a disability, they may not know anyone to prove their identity. So on that basis, they are currently at an unfair disadvantage in the passport application process. Simply because they don't know anyone, and that would imply you need to have friends to be eligible for a passport.

• direct discrimination - treating someone with a protected characteristic less favourably than others
• indirect discrimination - putting rules or arrangements in place that apply to everyone, but that put someone with a protected characteristic at an unfair disadvantage.

Emmia

I expect it's because "trusted professions" are people who are listed /registered officially - Civil Servants are employed by the government, and are known and listed - the same with teachers, doctors, accountants, lawyers... the person countersigning can therefore be verified. 

There's no professional registration for checkout assistants or cleaners - so a check to confirm isn't possible.  

Grumpy_chap

frank1978 said:

I was just wondering why people who don't work in or have not worked in one of the "respected" professions listed can't sign to confirm someone's identity for a passport. To me, it's implying that if you work in a low-paying job such as a cleaner or checkout operator, you're not a person of good standing and cannot be trusted. Or even because you don't have any employment, that could be the result of a disability, and you've been put at an unfair advantage and don't have the same rights because you don't have a job.

There are also people who need a countersigner for a first-time passport, and due to certain circumstances, such as a disability, they may not know anyone to prove their identity. So on that basis, they are currently at an unfair disadvantage in the passport application process. Simply because they don't know anyone, and that would imply you need to have friends to be eligible for a passport.

• direct discrimination - treating someone with a protected characteristic less favourably than others
• indirect discrimination - putting rules or arrangements in place that apply to everyone, but that put someone with a protected characteristic at an unfair disadvantage.

The list of people that can sign the identity check is very broad:
https://www.gov.uk/confirm-identity-online-for-passport-application

Which of the protected characteristics do you think is discriminated against by this requirement?
I have gone through the list and nothing comes to light where someone would have none of the contacts mentioned.

Your example is a disability, so I assume we are talking about a significant disability that prevents the individual taking part in activities of daily living.  Such an individual is quite likely to have a relationship with one of the medical / care roles in the list as a minimum.

Undervalued

Emmia said:

I expect it's because "trusted professions" are people who are listed /registered officially - Civil Servants are employed by the government, and are known and listed - the same with teachers, doctors, accountants, lawyers... the person countersigning can therefore be verified. 

There's no professional registration for checkout assistants or cleaners - so a check to confirm isn't possible.  

That was certainly true at one time. However, if you look at the fairly extensive list of eligible occupations for passport purposes you will find it goes far wider than just the legally regulated professions (e.g medical doctor, dentist, solicitor, barrister etc) and includes a whole raft of "professions" / trades where membership of any professional / trade body is optional.

Quite why some are on the list and some are excluded is far from obvious.

Of course, as a learned judge famously once observed "As far as I am aware there are only two professions, one is the law and we all know what the other one is"!

ACG

I dont know the official answer, but as someone who can sign for passports if I was found to be committing fraud I would have my permissions revoked by the FCA, my Insurance would become invalid and I would lose my income. Thats a big risk as I have a family to feed. 

If I worked as a cleaner (your example) unless I am working in a secure facility it is extremely unlikely I would lose my job as it is unlikely my employer would find out.

Vectis

frank1978 said:

I was just wondering why people who don't work in or have not worked in one of the "respected" professions listed can't sign to confirm someone's identity for a passport. To me, it's implying that if you work in a low-paying job such as a cleaner or checkout operator, you're not a person of good standing and cannot be trusted. Or even because you don't have any employment, that could be the result of a disability, and you've been put at an unfair advantage and don't have the same rights because you don't have a job.

There are also people who need a countersigner for a first-time passport, and due to certain circumstances, such as a disability, they may not know anyone to prove their identity. So on that basis, they are currently at an unfair disadvantage in the passport application process. Simply because they don't know anyone, and that would imply you need to have friends to be eligible for a passport.

• direct discrimination - treating someone with a protected characteristic less favourably than others
• indirect discrimination - putting rules or arrangements in place that apply to everyone, but that put someone with a protected characteristic at an unfair disadvantage.

It would probably be more useful if you stated who exactly you think is being discriminated against here, because it's not at all clear?

You mention disability, but what form of disability would mean that you knew no-one who could vouch for your identity e.g. a doctor or someone in the medical profession?

Andy_L

Grumpy_chap said:

frank1978 said:

I was just wondering why people who don't work in or have not worked in one of the "respected" professions listed can't sign to confirm someone's identity for a passport. To me, it's implying that if you work in a low-paying job such as a cleaner or checkout operator, you're not a person of good standing and cannot be trusted. Or even because you don't have any employment, that could be the result of a disability, and you've been put at an unfair advantage and don't have the same rights because you don't have a job.

There are also people who need a countersigner for a first-time passport, and due to certain circumstances, such as a disability, they may not know anyone to prove their identity. So on that basis, they are currently at an unfair disadvantage in the passport application process. Simply because they don't know anyone, and that would imply you need to have friends to be eligible for a passport.

• direct discrimination - treating someone with a protected characteristic less favourably than others
• indirect discrimination - putting rules or arrangements in place that apply to everyone, but that put someone with a protected characteristic at an unfair disadvantage.

The list of people that can sign the identity check is very broad:
https://www.gov.uk/confirm-identity-online-for-passport-application

and that list itself isn't exclusive but are only examples.

theoretica

I wonder in practice if, or how often, an ID verification is turned down because the person signing it does not have a sufficiently recognised profession or community standing? Or does the list just put people off from trying?

DullGreyGuy

frank1978 said:

I was just wondering why people who don't work in or have not worked in one of the "respected" professions listed can't sign to confirm someone's identity for a passport. To me, it's implying that if you work in a low-paying job such as a cleaner or checkout operator, you're not a person of good standing and cannot be trusted. Or even because you don't have any employment, that could be the result of a disability, and you've been put at an unfair advantage and don't have the same rights because you don't have a job.

Have you not seen the list? Its crazily broad including:

• Manager in a VAT registered company - that's going to be any shop, pub, restaurant you go to
• Manager or director of a limited company - you can set up a limited company for £13 in minutes and then you are able to sign anyone you knows passport as long as they not related

Your checkout operator will know their manager, ticks box 1 and likely 2 too
Your cleaner will have a manager and so as above, they may even have their own limited company

 People have an odd focus on the "professions" and ignore the wide open availability of people who are one step off the bottom rung in any company

 We had this discussion in our local the other day with someone complaining until it was pointed that there are 6 company owners (3 trades, 1 drone website and me), there are the two bar managers, there is the publican, the ex cop, the accountant, one photographer, two retired teachers, a social worker, a nurse, a retired merchant navy skipper, an engineer and a dentist. Some of those people technically would qualify under more than one heading as the publican is also a manager/director of a limited company.

Flugelhorn

Interestingly doctors were taken off the list some years back - can still do it for friends / staff etc but not for patients. Apparently just because someone is registered at a practice doesn't mean you would identify them from a photo / know who they are. some GPs were sent unnamed photos by the passport office and asked to "name this person" and of course they often can't.
It was actually a lot easier when they stopped this and you didn't have to decide if you knew them well enough - particularly when one parents brought all the family's forms in and didn't actually bring the relevant people

MattMattMattUK

Flugelhorn said:

Interestingly doctors were taken off the list some years back - can still do it for friends / staff etc but not for patients. Apparently just because someone is registered at a practice doesn't mean you would identify them from a photo / know who they are. some GPs were sent unnamed photos by the passport office and asked to "name this person" and of course they often can't.
It was actually a lot easier when they stopped this and you didn't have to decide if you knew them well enough - particularly when one parents brought all the family's forms in and didn't actually bring the relevant people

It was mostly re-worded to make doctor's lives easier as they regularly had patients asking for passport photos being signed because people viewed it as an easy option. The same rules always applied to them eg. knowing the personally for more than two years etc. The same now seems to be happening to teachers, they have become many people's default and they rarely know the extended family of their pupils. 

As the list includes limited company directors almost everyone knows someone who qualifies, pretty much every builder, window cleaner, gardener etc. is a Ltd these days. Unless one lives pretty much as a hermit they are likely to know someone who can confirm their identity for them.