Deposit penalties 2-6x - Legalise Letter from Landlord - Help!

Tigsy2222

Tussle with ex landlord over deposit. I left the property last month. 

His negotiating via email for deposit reduction made me suspicious so I checked online with all 3 companies if deposit has been protected, it hasn’t. I add a request at the bottom of my email of negotiation asking for cert details.

No reply. A day later I send a separate short email asking for cert details. I receive a reply to the first email which only agrees to my suggested amount (LL tried to charge me for damage that was already caused when I took over the tenancy, luckily I took video when I moved in so had proof I was not responsible). He still doesn’t give any details of deposit scheme info. 

Landlord wrote 

‘We hold your deposit of £xxx, from which we deduct the £xx you have offered, leaving a balance due to you of £xxx in full and final settlement..of any claims you have in regard to the deposit.we hold. If you agree with this Please email your bank details, I will transfer £xxx without delay.’ [His grammatical mistakes.]

I haven’t sent the bank details yet but I did reply asking for the deposit scheme details for a third time. No reply.

Question - Can I send the below back in reply and still go to court after to claim the penalties? 

‘Please find my bank details below to settle the matters of the bullet points in my email dated x/x/2023. 

My bank details are not being provided as agreement of full or final settlement on any other matters or claims in respect of my deposit.’

I want to use the deposit to fund the court fees. I am pretty sure you are all going to tell me that even the deductions he is asking for are now not legal. Its for an oven clean, I forgot to clean the internal walls of said oven. I don't mind paying for that.

The landlord has approx 30 tenants, many of them professionals new to the UK. I have checked with another tenant who hasn’t had deposit updated since assured shorthand tenancy contract ended and rolled over to statutory periodic tenancy and I suspect there will be a number more. 

Another question - I am reading that because he didn’t protect deposit/send a PI initially and again when my 1 year AST ended and rolled over to statutory periodic tenancy that he would actually owe the penalty of 2 to 6x my deposit. Can anyone confirm that too please?

Note: I am likely to go through a NWNF company and would appreciate any recommendations as I really don't want to deal with him direct again, he's the type of chap who won't take me seriously. He hurt my hand when shaking it whilst telling me he has friends to 'help with any troublesome tenants'. I cried to a friend about it after and ensured I wasn't alone with him again. I feel a bit daft about that but it is what it is. It hurt.

Any advice of what moves I make next would be really appreciated. Out all day but back this eve to check in. Thank you. (Sorry for the novel!)

propertyrental

Dear LL,
I note that my deposit was not protected as required by the Housing Act 2004 (as amended).

The penalty for a failure to protect is a minimum of 1 times the deposit (£X) / maximum of 3 times (£X)..

Since this failure to comply with the Act occurred both at the commencement of my tenancy (date) and again when the deposit became Statutory Periodic (date), the potential penalty is 6 times the deposit.

Kindly therefore refund my deposit in full (together with an additional £X???) in full and final settlement of these matters.

My bank details are:
blah blah

Yours sincerely, Tigsy

...............
I too have seen anecdotal suggestions of multiple penalties, but have yet to hear of successful legal cases where this occurred.

Certainly where a deposit is initially properly protected there is no requirement to re-protect when the tenancy becomes periodic, provided the original protection continues.

So whilst there's no harm in suggesting this to the LL you should not assume such a claim would succeed in court.

CSI_Yorkshire

propertyrental said:

I too have seen anecdotal suggestions of multiple penalties, but have yet to hear of successful legal cases where this occurred.

Certainly where a deposit is initially properly protected there is no requirement to re-protect when the tenancy becomes periodic, provided the original protection continues.

So whilst there's no harm in suggesting this to the LL you should not assume such a claim would succeed in court.

It does seem a little odd, the suggestion that it should be re-protected or re-penalised somehow - although I've seen similar anecdotal reports.  Its not a new tenancy, it's the same tenancy with updated terms.

The same logic could be used to suggest that each month of the periodic tenancy incurs a new 1-3x penalty, which would be very odd indeed.

Tigsy2222

propertyrental said:

Dear LL,
I note that my deposit was not protected as required by the Housing Act 2004 (as amended).

The penalty for a failure to protect is a minimum of 1 times the deposit (£X) / maximum of 3 times (£X)..

Since this failure to comply with the Act occurred both at the commencement of my tenancy (date) and again when the deposit became Statutory Periodic (date), the potential penalty is 6 times the deposit.

Kindly therefore refund my deposit in full (together with an additional £X???) in full and final settlement of these matters.

My bank details are:
blah blah

Yours sincerely, Tigsy

...............
I too have seen anecdotal suggestions of multiple penalties, but have yet to hear of successful legal cases where this occurred.

Certainly where a deposit is initially properly protected there is no requirement to re-protect when the tenancy becomes periodic, provided the original protection continues.

So whilst there's no harm in suggesting this to the LL you should not assume such a claim would succeed in court.

CSI_Yorkshire said:

propertyrental said:

I too have seen anecdotal suggestions of multiple penalties, but have yet to hear of successful legal cases where this occurred.

Certainly where a deposit is initially properly protected there is no requirement to re-protect when the tenancy becomes periodic, provided the original protection continues.

So whilst there's no harm in suggesting this to the LL you should not assume such a claim would succeed in court.

It does seem a little odd, the suggestion that it should be re-protected or re-penalised somehow - although I've seen similar anecdotal reports.  Its not a new tenancy, it's the same tenancy with updated terms.

The same logic could be used to suggest that each month of the periodic tenancy incurs a new 1-3x penalty, which would be very odd indeed.

Many thanks both, much appreciated.

I found the below on the The National Residents Landlords Association website.

‘For statutory periodic tenancies, there are two tenancies so the landlord can face a penalty of 2-6 times the deposit as a penalty for non-compliance instead.’

silvercar

Your call, but the landlord may take you less seriously if you try to claim 6 times. 

Tigsy2222

silvercar said:

Your call, but the landlord may take you less seriously if you try to claim 6 times. 

I'd let a solicitor deal with that, the LL is already not taking me seriously to be fair.

saajan_12

Tigsy2222 said:

Question - Can I send the below back in reply and still go to court after to claim the penalties? 

‘Please find my bank details below to settle the matters of the bullet points in my email dated x/x/2023. 

My bank details are not being provided as agreement of full or final settlement on any other matters or claims in respect of my deposit.’

I want to use the deposit to fund the court fees. 

Yeah, that works. Alternatively, you say you agree to the damages deductions and negotiate something more for the penalty now (say 2x deposit penalty + agreed partial return of deposit) rather than going to court at all. 

Tigsy2222 said:

propertyrental said:

Dear LL,
I note that my deposit was not protected as required by the Housing Act 2004 (as amended).

The penalty for a failure to protect is a minimum of 1 times the deposit (£X) / maximum of 3 times (£X)..

Since this failure to comply with the Act occurred both at the commencement of my tenancy (date) and again when the deposit became Statutory Periodic (date), the potential penalty is 6 times the deposit.

Kindly therefore refund my deposit in full (together with an additional £X???) in full and final settlement of these matters.

My bank details are:
blah blah

Yours sincerely, Tigsy

...............
I too have seen anecdotal suggestions of multiple penalties, but have yet to hear of successful legal cases where this occurred.

Certainly where a deposit is initially properly protected there is no requirement to re-protect when the tenancy becomes periodic, provided the original protection continues.

So whilst there's no harm in suggesting this to the LL you should not assume such a claim would succeed in court.

CSI_Yorkshire said:

propertyrental said:

I too have seen anecdotal suggestions of multiple penalties, but have yet to hear of successful legal cases where this occurred.

Certainly where a deposit is initially properly protected there is no requirement to re-protect when the tenancy becomes periodic, provided the original protection continues.

So whilst there's no harm in suggesting this to the LL you should not assume such a claim would succeed in court.

It does seem a little odd, the suggestion that it should be re-protected or re-penalised somehow - although I've seen similar anecdotal reports.  Its not a new tenancy, it's the same tenancy with updated terms.

The same logic could be used to suggest that each month of the periodic tenancy incurs a new 1-3x penalty, which would be very odd indeed.

Many thanks both, much appreciated.

I found the below on the The National Residents Landlords Association website.

‘For statutory periodic tenancies, there are two tenancies so the landlord can face a penalty of 2-6 times the deposit as a penalty for non-compliance instead.’

That's an opinion.. I've not seen any case law where a judge has actually awarded that. I'd think (not a lawyer) that its one tenancy, one deposit paid (ie you didn't pay, return, pay again) so one penalty (1-3x) due. As for where in that range, I'd think somewhere in the middle ~2x as it was more than a minor paperwork breach if it was never protected, but equally they didn't try to withhold the deposit, but did enter into discussion and settle at an amount you agreed with. 

propertyrental

Tigsy2222 said:

propertyrental said:

Dear LL,
I note that my deposit was not protected as required by the Housing Act 2004 (as amended).

The penalty for a failure to protect is a minimum of 1 times the deposit (£X) / maximum of 3 times (£X)..

Since this failure to comply with the Act occurred both at the commencement of my tenancy (date) and again when the deposit became Statutory Periodic (date), the potential penalty is 6 times the deposit.

Kindly therefore refund my deposit in full (together with an additional £X???) in full and final settlement of these matters.

My bank details are:
blah blah

Yours sincerely, Tigsy

...............
I too have seen anecdotal suggestions of multiple penalties, but have yet to hear of successful legal cases where this occurred.

Certainly where a deposit is initially properly protected there is no requirement to re-protect when the tenancy becomes periodic, provided the original protection continues.

So whilst there's no harm in suggesting this to the LL you should not assume such a claim would succeed in court.

CSI_Yorkshire said:

propertyrental said:

I too have seen anecdotal suggestions of multiple penalties, but have yet to hear of successful legal cases where this occurred.

Certainly where a deposit is initially properly protected there is no requirement to re-protect when the tenancy becomes periodic, provided the original protection continues.

So whilst there's no harm in suggesting this to the LL you should not assume such a claim would succeed in court.

It does seem a little odd, the suggestion that it should be re-protected or re-penalised somehow - although I've seen similar anecdotal reports.  Its not a new tenancy, it's the same tenancy with updated terms.

The same logic could be used to suggest that each month of the periodic tenancy incurs a new 1-3x penalty, which would be very odd indeed.

Many thanks both, much appreciated.

I found the below on the The National Residents Landlords Association website.

‘For statutory periodic tenancies, there are two tenancies so the landlord can face a penalty of 2-6 times the deposit as a penalty for non-compliance instead.’

Link please.

And I'd still like to hear of a court using this to impose a 6 times penalty....

Schwarzwald

Tigsy2222 said:

silvercar said:

Your call, but the landlord may take you less seriously if you try to claim 6 times. 

I'd let a solicitor deal with that, the LL is already not taking me seriously to be fair.

you might end up throwing good money after bad money.

i think the letter as proposed is good. maybe add that failing this final settlement, you will engage a solicitor to handle the case and might also involve other tenants into this case as you know of at least 1 other tenant whose deposit dont seem to be secured.

if the LL still does not settle, give it to a solicitor.
but if the LL is any smart, he rather returns your deposit than risking multiple fines on each deposit.
even if he settles, inform the other tenant(s) that their deposits are likely unprotected.
but only do that AFTER the money is in your account.
from how it sounds, i think there is a moral responsibility to act in the interest of the other tenants even if you get off the hook by getting your deposit back.

Tigsy2222

 @propertyrental I can't post links on the forum yet, too new, but The National Residential Landlords Association's guide to contractual and statutory periodic tenancies is where to look. 

@Shwarwald I have written to LL to request the agreed deposit is returned but not in final agreement/settlement. Let's see what he says to that.

I believe the situation is called a 'multi breach', whether they are still being penalised isn't clear but I shall keep researching. 

propertyrental

Tigsy2222 said:

 @propertyrental I can't post links on the forum yet, too new, but The National Residential Landlords Association's guide to contractual and statutory periodic tenancies is where to look. 

All you need do is paste the link into your post and then add a space somewhere (eg  www. xxxx). The system will then not recognise it as a link and we just have to remove the space......