Ideal Logic Combi 24 no hot water or heat

ThisIsWeird

FataVerde said:

FreeBear said:

FataVerde said: I'm getting the Vitodens installed this Sat. I managed to get Heatable to match a much cheaper quote I found online so I'm now getting the installation for a fixed price of £2,095

So how did the install go ?

Or is it going to take three days spread over a week like mine did....

Well, I had a cowboy installer yesterday who came in at 8.15am and left at 3pm. He barely communicated so I just told him to connect the existing Heatlink over OpenTherm and asked some questions. I'm already used to GS trying to fob me off because I am a woman. I'm not too pleased because:

1. I'm not sure he actually did the chemical flush and the chemical inhibitor treatment. He came in with a MagnaClean box and installed the Magnetic filter. While he was packing to leave I checked the MC1 and MC3 bottles for the brand for future maintenance and was surprised they were both full. It's possible he used some other stuff he had, but I'm not sure at all. He didn't balance the system afterwards. I mean he started the heat and I told him one of the living room rads had not heated up like the rest. He fiddled with the valve a bit and said it's fine.

So today, I bled the rads and Rad 2, which bled rusty water while I was trying to get pressure down on my old Ideal boiler, bled clear water. Rad 4 (which was not heating up) and 5 down the line produced rusty water.


Not sure if there is any other way to check the use of chemical flush and inhibitor. Any suggestions of alternative ways? I plan to complain to heatable. They apparently have a 30-day guarantee on workmanship.

2. The LED controls on the boiler do not work. The mode icon works when I press, but the up and down arrows adjusting heat and water temp don't really work. Sometimes I'd see the value went down a few points but it takes a few minutes for the change to appear.

3. I'm attaching a pic of the Heatlink connections. Does it look like it's properly linked? To me it seems so because he used OT1 and OT2 but just in case I am missing something. 

He kept insisting the Nest can't control water temperature for combi boilers, but nest instructions say 3rd gen Nest can do it so I reset the Nest myself to OpenTherm and picked water temp. Not sure if it works with the boiler because  the controls don't work to see if he set the boiler on opentherm.





4. Not sure on the condensing pipe: I had one outside that he would have needed a high ladder to replace. He seemed unwilling to deal with that so he just basically installed the pipe inside. See pic. He said the previous pipe was not installed according to regulations and that they try to bring the pipe inside whenever possible so it does not freeze in winter.





5. He filled out a benchmark form claiming he did all sorts of things he didn't like install thermostatic valves. My old rads could have used replacement valves, but this is probably minor.

Thanks!

Hi FV.
He came in with the 'Magnaclean box', by which I presume you mean the large unit (Magnacleanse) in a case with long hoses? Did you see it connected? Did you see him unscrew them to check and remove what he'd collected? Did he go around the radiators opening them up fully, one at a time, and 'agitating' them, either with a noisy attachment on a drill, or by thumping them along their bottoms?
Tbh, if you don't open both rad valves fully, you ain't going to get a cleaning flow through them. Ideally the whole system should be balanced again, but if you just note down the starting positions of each lockshield, then it's dead easy to return to that setting afterwards. Tbf, a full 'balance' is a large time-consuming task in its own right, so I can't see a plumber doing this unless it's essential, and I think it would be considered an 'extra'. But, in my view, the rads should have been opened fully, ideally one at a time, agitated, and then returned to their starting position afterwards - that seems a basic requirement for a 'clean' to me, but GSs on here will hopefully confirm.
Do your rads already have TRVs on them? If so, again they won't factor in new ones except as an 'extra'. But, if some are 'manual', I 'think' they should have factored in replacements with the quote, but it would be extra.
Used properly, the Mag can remove huge amounts of sludge, but they won't, in themselves, leave the water 'clean'; this is done by draining down the system, refilling, and flushing. Usually also required to remove the strong cleaning chemicals used during the process. Did he have a hose going out to a drain?

The condensate pipe looks like a huge improvement, assuming it's going to a suitable waste pipe. It's inside, and removes the shocking eyesore of the previous one - I bet you can't wait to remove that!

I can't really comment on the other issues like the boiler controls as I'm not familiar with them. In theory there's no reason - provided it's a feature of that make of boiler - that the DHW temp cannot be adjusted remotely, but I wasn't aware that some boilers could be - mine certainly cannot, but then it's a set-and-forget for me. Ask the boiler manufacturer whether it's controllable by a Nest 3 - they will know.

Other than that, it's the install looking good?

Did he leave you with the larger plastic spanner got the Magnaclean filter? He should - it comes with it. You'll be able to check how clean your system is in, say, a couple of months.

FataVerde

FreeBear said:

FataVerde said: He had not set my Nest to Open therm (it was still on the on/off setting) and despite insisting the Nest cannot control water temp on a combi, I followed the video that recommended using the Equipment option on the Nest to set water temp and enable modulation.

At least you had a thermostat that was sort of controlling the boiler - My thermostat got connected to the wrong terminals inside the boiler, so would never have work had he set everything up to run OpenTherm...

Tip - Set the Nest to disable hot water (if it can do that), and then the boiler won't be firing up every few hours to keep the water inside hot. It will still power up as soon as you open a tap. Using OpenTherm disables Eco Mode and hands the responsibility over to the thermostat.

I've fiddled with the Nest yesterday and I think it's now controlling water and heat temps. I managed to get the scalding water temp down at least. But I'm confused about the temp readings on the boiler screen. I set water temp at 52 on Nest, but when I turn on hot water, the boiler screen shows water temp going up to 58. Not sure what that's about. 

By disabling hot water, you mean something like turning off Preheat? The boiler has this eco option, but it's not coming up on my screen at all. Maybe because the boiler is set to OpenTherm? Annoyingly, it seems the Nest does not give this option. A guy whose videos I've been watching to set the Vitodens thinks he found a way to do it by choosing system boiler vs combi boiler in the Nest setting. I wonder what you think. It's towards the end, at min 1:33

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gZcy0sruFfA&list=RDCMUCNSfV3L4jv7Kx22lxo0Sv-g&index=1

I have a few questions on the install process:

1. Draining and chemical flushing the system. I have the 1st floor flat in a conversion. Can you drain a system upstairs in the bathroom where the boiler is? Or do you need it to go to the ground floor drainage? My installer had some hoses fit in the bathroom by the boiler and water came out into my sink.

On the positive side, the radiator that bled rusty water yesterday gave me cleaner water today so I guess the system is getting cleaner. Would this be a sign the he actually did the chemical flushing or put inhibitor in the system? Getting those tests in the mail too. 

2. Gas pipe between meter and boiler: was this something you had to have done or is this a regular part of the install? He asked me where the gas meter was but I'm not sure he did anything there.

Check your paperwork for warranty on workmanship. I double checked mine and it's actually 12 months. If you used Heatable too it should be the same

FataVerde

ThisIsWeird said:

He came in with the 'Magnaclean box', by which I presume you mean the large unit (Magnacleanse) in a case with long hoses? Did you see it connected? Did you see him unscrew them to check and remove what he'd collected? Did he go around the radiators opening them up fully, one at a time, and 'agitating' them, either with a noisy attachment on a drill, or by thumping them along their bottoms?
Tbh, if you don't open both rad valves fully, you ain't going to get a cleaning flow through them. Ideally the whole system should be balanced again, but if you just note down the starting positions of each lockshield, then it's dead easy to return to that setting afterwards. Tbf, a full 'balance' is a large time-consuming task in its own right, so I can't see a plumber doing this unless it's essential, and I think it would be considered an 'extra'. But, in my view, the rads should have been opened fully, ideally one at a time, agitated, and then returned to their starting position afterwards - that seems a basic requirement for a 'clean' to me, but GSs on here will hopefully confirm.
Do your rads already have TRVs on them? If so, again they won't factor in new ones except as an 'extra'. But, if some are 'manual', I 'think' they should have factored in replacements with the quote, but it would be extra.
Used properly, the Mag can remove huge amounts of sludge, but they won't, in themselves, leave the water 'clean'; this is done by draining down the system, refilling, and flushing. Usually also required to remove the strong cleaning chemicals used during the process. Did he have a hose going out to a drain?

The condensate pipe looks like a huge improvement, assuming it's going to a suitable waste pipe. It's inside, and removes the shocking eyesore of the previous one - I bet you can't wait to remove that!

I can't really comment on the other issues like the boiler controls as I'm not familiar with them. In theory there's no reason - provided it's a feature of that make of boiler - that the DHW temp cannot be adjusted remotely, but I wasn't aware that some boilers could be - mine certainly cannot, but then it's a set-and-forget for me. Ask the boiler manufacturer whether it's controllable by a Nest 3 - they will know.

Other than that, it's the install looking good?

Did he leave you with the larger plastic spanner got the Magnaclean filter? He should - it comes with it. You'll be able to check how clean your system is in, say, a couple of months.

You're probably referring to a power flush. I selected only a chemical flush, which was included in the fixed-price install offer bec it's likely a warranty requirement from Viessmann. He came with this box https://www.cityplumbing.co.uk/p/adey-magnaclean-micro2-filter-and-chemical-pack-fl1-03-01275/p/247245

So the pack has a magnetic filter, which he installed on the pipe under the boiler, and two bottles, one for chemical flushing, the second an inhibitor. But both were full at the end. He could have used some old bottles but I haven't seen anything else except his tools. 

All I saw him doing that looked like draining and chemical flushing was drain water form the system through a hose in my bathroom sink by the boiler. I chatted with him then and he said there is just rust in my system bec the water came out like the one i posted in the glass. Later, he came in the living room making sure the thermostatic valves were open (I had opened them all to 5), but he didn't do anything to the other valves (not sure what they are called) and definitely did not shake the rads. I have two one-year old rads fitted during renovation. The other two are older. Water seems to come out clearer today from the new rad which bled rusty water yesterday. Clearly water circulated in the system since the install because I've used it, but not sure if cleaner water is the result of the chemical flush or the inhibitor.

The new boiler is so sleek. It's proofed and it's sooo quiet. Mine is in the bathroom so I wasn't concerned with noise, but I'm hoping this means less heat loss. We have a rad in the hallway that wasn't really working and it's now started to heat up so the installer said it could be something to do with the pump in the old boiler. We're not planning to use it as it would be a waste of heat, but it surely shows the old boiler was not in great shape.

Apparently, setting the boiler to OpenTherm means I can't control water from the boiler and the Nest settings enable me to set water temp, but not turn off preheat for example. But unless we rewire the boiler to ON/Off settings, I can't get control of water tem from the boiler. At least that's my understanding. Looks like these smart controllers and thermostats might be too smart for me 

FreeBear

All I can say about the Nest hack, is what a faf.... There must be an easier way.

Don't know if you can enable/disable eco mode through the ViCare app - I have the app, but haven't felt the need to set up an account with Viessmann and use it. Judging by this thread - https://community.tado.com/en-gb/discussion/14493/viessmann-vitodens-050-w-opentherm-preheat-now-fixed - It should be possible either through the ViCare app or the ViGuide. I'd suggest contacting Viessmann and see what they recommend/suggest.

In answer to your other questions. Draining the system is usually done from the lowest point. Doesn't really matter too much where the hose directs the water. The water could be getting clearer as the magnetic filter does its job of trapping sludge.

My gas pipe had to be replaced as a) the boiler is in a new location, and b) it would have been way too small. Originally a 15mm pipe, now 22mm (part of it should be 28mm in my opinion). Your installer should have done a pressure drop test at the meter as well as checked the size of the pipe.

ThisIsWeird

FataVerde said:

ThisIsWeird said:

He came in with the 'Magnaclean box', by which I presume you mean the large unit (Magnacleanse) in a case with long hoses? Did you see it connected? Did you see him unscrew them to check and remove what he'd collected? Did he go around the radiators opening them up fully, one at a time, and 'agitating' them, either with a noisy attachment on a drill, or by thumping them along their bottoms?
Tbh, if you don't open both rad valves fully, you ain't going to get a cleaning flow through them. Ideally the whole system should be balanced again, but if you just note down the starting positions of each lockshield, then it's dead easy to return to that setting afterwards. Tbf, a full 'balance' is a large time-consuming task in its own right, so I can't see a plumber doing this unless it's essential, and I think it would be considered an 'extra'. But, in my view, the rads should have been opened fully, ideally one at a time, agitated, and then returned to their starting position afterwards - that seems a basic requirement for a 'clean' to me, but GSs on here will hopefully confirm.
Do your rads already have TRVs on them? If so, again they won't factor in new ones except as an 'extra'. But, if some are 'manual', I 'think' they should have factored in replacements with the quote, but it would be extra.
Used properly, the Mag can remove huge amounts of sludge, but they won't, in themselves, leave the water 'clean'; this is done by draining down the system, refilling, and flushing. Usually also required to remove the strong cleaning chemicals used during the process. Did he have a hose going out to a drain?

The condensate pipe looks like a huge improvement, assuming it's going to a suitable waste pipe. It's inside, and removes the shocking eyesore of the previous one - I bet you can't wait to remove that!

I can't really comment on the other issues like the boiler controls as I'm not familiar with them. In theory there's no reason - provided it's a feature of that make of boiler - that the DHW temp cannot be adjusted remotely, but I wasn't aware that some boilers could be - mine certainly cannot, but then it's a set-and-forget for me. Ask the boiler manufacturer whether it's controllable by a Nest 3 - they will know.

Other than that, it's the install looking good?

Did he leave you with the larger plastic spanner got the Magnaclean filter? He should - it comes with it. You'll be able to check how clean your system is in, say, a couple of months.

You're probably referring to a power flush. I selected only a chemical flush, which was included in the fixed-price install offer bec it's likely a warranty requirement from Viessmann. He came with this box https://www.cityplumbing.co.uk/p/adey-magnaclean-micro2-filter-and-chemical-pack-fl1-03-01275/p/247245

So the pack has a magnetic filter, which he installed on the pipe under the boiler, and two bottles, one for chemical flushing, the second an inhibitor. But both were full at the end. He could have used some old bottles but I haven't seen anything else except his tools. 

All I saw him doing that looked like draining and chemical flushing was drain water form the system through a hose in my bathroom sink by the boiler. I chatted with him then and he said there is just rust in my system bec the water came out like the one i posted in the glass. Later, he came in the living room making sure the thermostatic valves were open (I had opened them all to 5), but he didn't do anything to the other valves (not sure what they are called) and definitely did not shake the rads. I have two one-year old rads fitted during renovation. The other two are older. Water seems to come out clearer today from the new rad which bled rusty water yesterday. Clearly water circulated in the system since the install because I've used it, but not sure if cleaner water is the result of the chemical flush or the inhibitor.

The new boiler is so sleek. It's proofed and it's sooo quiet. Mine is in the bathroom so I wasn't concerned with noise, but I'm hoping this means less heat loss. We have a rad in the hallway that wasn't really working and it's now started to heat up so the installer said it could be something to do with the pump in the old boiler. We're not planning to use it as it would be a waste of heat, but it surely shows the old boiler was not in great shape.

Apparently, setting the boiler to OpenTherm means I can't control water from the boiler and the Nest settings enable me to set water temp, but not turn off preheat for example. But unless we rewire the boiler to ON/Off settings, I can't get control of water tem from the boiler. At least that's my understanding. Looks like these smart controllers and thermostats might be too smart for me 

Either type of system clean will release any sludge and this will then circulate in the pipes. The 'Magnacleanse' will grab most of that using very powerful magnets, whereas the 'chemical' clean won't, so that is removed by draining the dirty water afterwards. 
We obviously don't know exactly what he did, what chemicals he actually used, and how much drawing and refilling he carried out. But, your system has only 4 or 5 rads?, in which case it should be easy to clean, and likely what he's done is fine. Bottom line, if you maintain the warranty with annual services, then you should be ok.
The wee filter you linked to is designed to continue pulling any remaining sludge from your system. This will be 'old' sludge, as there should be zero new produced since system inhibitor has been added.

FataVerde

FreeBear said:

All I can say about the Nest hack, is what a faf.... There must be an easier way.

Don't know if you can enable/disable eco mode through the ViCare app - I have the app, but haven't felt the need to set up an account with Viessmann and use it. Judging by this thread - https://community.tado.com/en-gb/discussion/14493/viessmann-vitodens-050-w-opentherm-preheat-now-fixed - It should be possible either through the ViCare app or the ViGuide. I'd suggest contacting Viessmann and see what they recommend/suggest.

In answer to your other questions. Draining the system is usually done from the lowest point. Doesn't really matter too much where the hose directs the water. The water could be getting clearer as the magnetic filter does its job of trapping sludge.

My gas pipe had to be replaced as a) the boiler is in a new location, and b) it would have been way too small. Originally a 15mm pipe, now 22mm (part of it should be 28mm in my opinion). Your installer should have done a pressure drop test at the meter as well as checked the size of the pipe.

That's a great idea about the app. Unfortunately, the installer was supposed to add a sticker with an extra QR code on the boiler that would have served as passcode to sign up for the app, but he didn't. I'd probably have to take off the front hood to get to it. I wonder if I can do this without voiding warranty.

I'm still working on the Nest/boiler settings. I set hot water temp at 52C, but the boiler touchscreen shows temperatures in the high 50 and even 60. i typically check it when I turn the hot water on. I know OpenTherm disables the boiler controls, but should the temps on the screen mirror those on the Nest? Are they arbitrary? Or could there be a difference in how their temp sensors work? 

 With the boiler now set on OpenTherm, I don't seem to have a plan B if the Nest thermostat fails to work. When I press the Heatlink button, which reverts controls to manual, the boiler controls still don't work, presumably because they are disabled by opentherm. While I love the Nest, it can easily fail. Mine is connected via Wifi and it's enough for that to drop and I lose control. Any ideas on how I could control heat and hot water temps in case of Nest failure? 

Probably time for a call to Viessmann

FataVerde

ThisIsWeird said:

Either type of system clean will release any sludge and this will then circulate in the pipes. The 'Magnacleanse' will grab most of that using very powerful magnets, whereas the 'chemical' clean won't, so that is removed by draining the dirty water afterwards. 
We obviously don't know exactly what he did, what chemicals he actually used, and how much drawing and refilling he carried out. But, your system has only 4 or 5 rads?, in which case it should be easy to clean, and likely what he's done is fine. Bottom line, if you maintain the warranty with annual services, then you should be ok.
The wee filter you linked to is designed to continue pulling any remaining sludge from your system. This will be 'old' sludge, as there should be zero new produced since system inhibitor has been added.

That's what I thought too. Last year, I did some renovations and I replaced an old rad with two new ones. During plastering, a third rad was completely drained and removed, then reinstalled. So I have 4 rads upstairs, 2 new, 1 old recently drained and a single rad in the bathroom. I don;t use the downstairs rad. So I didn't expect serious drainage issues, which is why I did not pay an extra #200-300 for power flush.

ThisIsWeird

Thinking about it, a drain-down following either form of cleaning would be best, as strong chemicals are used in both. Not sure if these can just be 'neutralised' in situ instead, but I'd personally want a drain-down and refill with clean water as an intro to my nice new system. :-)

FreeBear

FataVerde said: That's a great idea about the app. Unfortunately, the installer was supposed to add a sticker with an extra QR code on the boiler that would have served as passcode to sign up for the app, but he didn't. I'd probably have to take off the front hood to get to it. I wonder if I can do this without voiding warranty.

The label & QR code are in a little pocket attached to the black housing for the PCB. The only way to get to it is to pop the front panel off - To get the panel off, you need to be Gas Safe registered as you are breaking the "seal" on the boiler. That said, it really isn't that difficult to get the cover off. The hardest part is identifying where to shove a stick to release the catches. It is not obvious, and the manual is deliberately vague about the procedure. So here is a short video...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9vuH0QrXT6c

At around 0:28, a nice clear shot of where to poke your stick or screwdriver. At 0:58, you can see the little pocket containing the labels on the left of the PCB housing.

To put the cover back on, slot in at the top, give it a thump downwards with your hand, and then push firmly at the bottom of the panel. It should just click back in place.

Plan B if the Nest doesn't want to play ball could be this -> https://diyless.com/product/opentherm-thermostat

I got the master OpenTherm shield along with a WeMos D1 mini so that i could hook it up to my home automation system. If you are in to computers & stuff, programming a D1 is really easy. Also found ordering from DIYLess to be painless and reasonably quick delivery (just over a week as I recall).

Been playing with the software*, and have extended it to extract extra information from the Viessmann boiler (fan speed, modulation levels, etc). Some of the OpenTherm commands don't appear to be supported (burner run time, pump & valve starts), and also logging a few spurious readings (mainly cold water flow).

*) Available on github if you need it. Just pm me for the link.