Stolen parcel left unattended by Royal Mail

the_lunatic_is_in_my_head

tightauldgit said:

ETA: Maybe Section 28.2 covers the safe place? 'Unless the trader and the consumer have agreed otherwise, the contract is to be treated as including a term that the trader must deliver the goods to the consumer" - if you agree that the trader delivers the goods to your shed rather than you then I guess that would satisfy the law? 

Risk doesn't pass upon voluntary transfer of possession from one person to another (delivery) if it did that would be what was stated under passing of the risk instead of the term physical possession.

RefluentBeans

the_lunatic_is_in_my_head said:

tightauldgit said:

ETA: Maybe Section 28.2 covers the safe place? 'Unless the trader and the consumer have agreed otherwise, the contract is to be treated as including a term that the trader must deliver the goods to the consumer" - if you agree that the trader delivers the goods to your shed rather than you then I guess that would satisfy the law? 

Risk doesn't pass upon voluntary transfer of possession from one person to another (delivery) if it did that would be what was stated under passing of the risk instead of the term physical possession.

I think that’s an interesting take from the CAB - I think that this whole thing needs to be tested in court. These laws do not seem fit for todays time, and I (personally) feel that the retailer is taking on all the risk, whilst the delivery companies appear to be able to act how they want without legal repercussion from either side. In this case, RM probably won’t pay out to the retailer stating that they delivered it, and the customer claims they haven’t. Whilst the retailer has to absorb the costs. I do think that there should be some shared risk between the retailer, the delivery agent, (and potentially the consumer). 

user1977

RefluentBeans said:

the_lunatic_is_in_my_head said:

tightauldgit said:

ETA: Maybe Section 28.2 covers the safe place? 'Unless the trader and the consumer have agreed otherwise, the contract is to be treated as including a term that the trader must deliver the goods to the consumer" - if you agree that the trader delivers the goods to your shed rather than you then I guess that would satisfy the law? 

Risk doesn't pass upon voluntary transfer of possession from one person to another (delivery) if it did that would be what was stated under passing of the risk instead of the term physical possession.

I think that’s an interesting take from the CAB - I think that this whole thing needs to be tested in court.

We'd need to wait for somebody to have an (allegedly) missing parcel which is worth arguing about to the appeal courts.

Teacholic

Hi everyone. Just caught up with the posts here. Thanks so much for everyone’s thoughts and Sheri g knowledge.

By seller I mentant online retail shop, so business, not private individual. Sorry for not being clear earlier.

I also do not have nominated safe place with Royal Mail. And I did not explicitly ask to be left in a safe place when I was making order. Uncles it was placed sneakily in terms of consigns of use of the online shop I haven’t realised. This article mentions it and perhaps adds to the discussion: https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/business-consumer/your-rights-parcels-delivered-safe-13650005

I cannot claim refunding me money via RM directly as they only reimburse the retailer. Frustratingly, the online retailer is uncooperative and dismissive of my complaint. 

I’ll follow with the breach of contract formal letter (via recorded or signed delivery) and email. I’ll take to small claims if not able to negotiate satisfying outcome and will report it as stolen goods. Perhaps it’ll help with the claim if I need to make one. 

I’m thinking of getting halo ring or something
like that in future. I’m renting so not sure if I’d need to drill etc. but would have been so helpful having video around the claimed delivery time.  

tightauldgit

the_lunatic_is_in_my_head said:

tightauldgit said:

ETA: Maybe Section 28.2 covers the safe place? 'Unless the trader and the consumer have agreed otherwise, the contract is to be treated as including a term that the trader must deliver the goods to the consumer" - if you agree that the trader delivers the goods to your shed rather than you then I guess that would satisfy the law? 

Risk doesn't pass upon voluntary transfer of possession from one person to another (delivery) if it did that would be what was stated under passing of the risk instead of the term physical possession.

Not quite sure what you are getting at but 28.2 would seem to completely override the passing of risk section provided it's an agreement between consumer and supplier and not the supplier simply stating it in their contract terms. 

I can't find any other section that would relate to what Citizens Advice is saying anyway. 

tightauldgit

user1977 said:

RefluentBeans said:

the_lunatic_is_in_my_head said:

tightauldgit said:

ETA: Maybe Section 28.2 covers the safe place? 'Unless the trader and the consumer have agreed otherwise, the contract is to be treated as including a term that the trader must deliver the goods to the consumer" - if you agree that the trader delivers the goods to your shed rather than you then I guess that would satisfy the law? 

Risk doesn't pass upon voluntary transfer of possession from one person to another (delivery) if it did that would be what was stated under passing of the risk instead of the term physical possession.

I think that’s an interesting take from the CAB - I think that this whole thing needs to be tested in court.

We'd need to wait for somebody to have an (allegedly) missing parcel which is worth arguing about to the appeal courts.

Or someone at trading standards or some similar body bringing cases against couriers who deem left on a doorstep as delivered? 

the_lunatic_is_in_my_head

tightauldgit said:

the_lunatic_is_in_my_head said:

tightauldgit said:

ETA: Maybe Section 28.2 covers the safe place? 'Unless the trader and the consumer have agreed otherwise, the contract is to be treated as including a term that the trader must deliver the goods to the consumer" - if you agree that the trader delivers the goods to your shed rather than you then I guess that would satisfy the law? 

Risk doesn't pass upon voluntary transfer of possession from one person to another (delivery) if it did that would be what was stated under passing of the risk instead of the term physical possession.

Not quite sure what you are getting at but 28.2 would seem to completely override the passing of risk section provided it's an agreement between consumer and supplier and not the supplier simply stating it in their contract terms. 

I can't find any other section that would relate to what Citizens Advice is saying anyway. 

We discussed this before For the purpose of Part 2 (Goods) of the CRA the word "delivery" means voluntary transfer of possession from one person to another, rather than sent by post/courier.

If you agree to have your parcel posted/couriered to your shed then voluntary transfer of possession from one person to another is still going to occur. 

CABs chat is closed on the weekends, will ask them about their guidance and what we are discussing on Monday, although don't hold out much hope of that getting us anywhere.  

tightauldgit

the_lunatic_is_in_my_head said:

tightauldgit said:

the_lunatic_is_in_my_head said:

tightauldgit said:

ETA: Maybe Section 28.2 covers the safe place? 'Unless the trader and the consumer have agreed otherwise, the contract is to be treated as including a term that the trader must deliver the goods to the consumer" - if you agree that the trader delivers the goods to your shed rather than you then I guess that would satisfy the law? 

Risk doesn't pass upon voluntary transfer of possession from one person to another (delivery) if it did that would be what was stated under passing of the risk instead of the term physical possession.

Not quite sure what you are getting at but 28.2 would seem to completely override the passing of risk section provided it's an agreement between consumer and supplier and not the supplier simply stating it in their contract terms. 

I can't find any other section that would relate to what Citizens Advice is saying anyway. 

We discussed this before For the purpose of Part 2 (Goods) of the CRA the word "delivery" means voluntary transfer of possession from one person to another, rather than sent by post/courier.

If you agree to have your parcel posted/couriered to your shed then voluntary transfer of possession from one person to another is still going to occur. 

CABs chat is closed on the weekends, will ask them about their guidance and what we are discussing on Monday, although don't hold out much hope of that getting us anywhere.  

Still not getting your point or how it relates, but I haven't had my second coffee yet. 

the_lunatic_is_in_my_head

tightauldgit said:

ETA: Maybe Section 28.2 covers the safe place? 'Unless the trader and the consumer have agreed otherwise, the contract is to be treated as including a term that the trader must deliver the goods to the consumer" - if you agree that the trader delivers the goods to your shed rather than you then I guess that would satisfy the law? 

You mentioned delivery (transport by courier) to a shed "would mean the trader and the consumer have agreed otherwise" and passing of risk wouldn't apply.

However even with delivery (transport by courier) to a shed delivery (voluntary transfer of possession from one person to another) would still occur.

The issue is with the word delivery being taken to mean transport by courier.  

outtatune

Whatever Royal Mail's T&Cs say is irrelevant to the OP, because they are not RM's customer. RM's T&Cs are the seller's problem.