Zero standing charge

Scot_39

Got mine from a quick google it listed the 3.

CSI_Yorkshire said:

Scot_39 said:

Dolor said:

wrf12345 said:

"reducing standing charges for low users would result in higher standing charges for everybody else. "

Sorry but the fabled average user would pay exactly what they are paying now, lower than average would pay less. The big solution is to get rid of the s/c and let the national grid buy energy in massive bulk and sell direct to the user if they have smart meters fitted, set to prepayment mode and topped up online via debit cards (if you can't do that then you will be able to stay with the rump of retail energy and pay for the pleasure). That would be a saving of roughly twenty percent in unit cost even with a higher rate to include the standing charge, the dinosaur retail energy companies deserve a good kicking.

As to the energy efficient householder, after massive expense, being expected to pay s/c's to prop up a corrupt energy industry, well...

How would that work:

‘The National Grid is the system operator of Great Britain's electricity and gas supply. This includes England, Scotland and Wales. It is the company that manages the network and distribution of electricity and gas that powers all our homes and businesses.

National Grid plc's top ten shareholders range from global asset management firms BlackRock and Vanguard to public pension funds, notably those of Norway and the Abu Dhabi Investment Authority. As of 2022, BlackRock held close to 9% of total shares.’

So you want buy out all the existing energy suppliers, and then you want to give an enormous contract to a single private company that has absolutely no experience whatsoever of purchasing energy with a calculated saving of 20%.

We would all be interested to see your Business Plan.

Not strictly true.

If talking grid transmission operators there are three.

Scotland has 2 of its own electricity grid network transmission operators - for electricity at least -  SSEN in North (despite Southern in title) and SP EN in Central belt / South.

N Grid only cover England and Wales for electric - gas ? - iirc.

And at some point responsibility drops down to a larger number of the regional distribution companies - you will have a name and number for them to report power cuts etc - to get power from grid substations to your meter.

What Dolor says is exactly true.

Scotland has two transmission system owners and England/Wales has the third.

The UK has exactly one transmission system operator.  National Grid ESO is the electricity system operator for England, Wales and Scotland.

National Gas Transmission (which is 40% owned by National Grid) is the gas system operator.

You are confused between owner and operator.  Also, whilst you are right that there are Distribution Network Operators (which they sometimes call distribution system operators) at lower voltages across the country, overall responsibility is retained by National Grid ESO - who can give instructions to the DNOs to perform a number of system-related tasks.

Thanks - probable confusion on my part between owners, managers and operator.

e.g. https://lookaftermybills.com/blog/the-national-grid-who-are-they-and-what-do-they-do/

Lists the 3 transmission companies - and describes their role as "Transmission companies manage the high voltage electricity wires"

and that seemed to be backed up with another statement on an old parliament document link from c2011.

CSI_Yorkshire

That's the problem with telling someone they are wrong based on "a quick google".

Scot_39

Not Strictly Correct is not the same as saying wrong.

The post Dolor was responding to was suggesting replacing the current resellers with National Grid direct.

I was simply trying to make it clear it is far more complex structure.

They are not the only other company involved.

So click on say the map links at

https://www.energynetworks.org/customers/find-my-network-operator

And it says SSEN and SPEN are the Transmission Operators.  Not owners - operators.

And having operational or supervisory responsibility under law - is not the same as being the actual operator.

Take a more down to earth everyday example - if you drive a car - who is the vehicle operator ? 

the govt and councils who set the laws you are meant to abide by, 

the police or councils or their agents who may enforce them

or 

the driver who actually operates the controls.

Part of the problem on such occassions with English - is that it is a very imprecise language.

CSI_Yorkshire

Scot_39 said:

And it says SSEN and SPEN are the Transmission Operators.  Not owners - operators.

They're not.  Legally, operationally, metaphysically, or any other way.

From SSEN's own site - "The responsibilities and obligations for the safe installation, operation and maintenance of our transmission network are split across two parties – the Transmission Owners (TO) and National Grid Electricity System Operator (NGESO).  Our licenced company, SSEN Transmission is the TO of the electricity network which operates at voltages of 132kV and above in the north of Scotland."

From the SPEN site - "SP Transmission is a Transmission Owner (TO). Whilst we retain ownership of our transmission assets, such as substations and transmission towers, we have a licence obligation to maintain, design, develop and deliver new or modified connections to our network.  National Grid Electricity System Operator (NGESO) are the designated system operator (SO) in England, Scotland and Wales."

To take your irrelevant real world example - if there is a fleet car that your company owns and is responsible for maintaining and insuring, but that you are the sole driver allowed to use it, they are the car's owner and you are the car's operator.

Part of the benefit of having specifically defined technical terms in English - they are not imprecise at all.

It would be entirely possible, although nonsensical, for National Grid to run retail without disturbing the relationship with the transmission owners.

Goldfishman

EDF have a £800+ credit on account at my 12 month review with the last 3 actual readings being submitted to them within one month of my annual review, to avoid any excuse to 'estimate.  They also wanted to increase my direct debit by £21.00 per month!  I complained via a phone call and got my original direct debit reinstated but am still battling to get my refund.  They are without doubt the worst utility company I have ever used in 20+years of dealing similar suppliers but never again.  GOLDFISHMAN

Mobtr

Goldfishman said:

EDF have a £800+ credit on account at my 12 month review with the last 3 actual readings being submitted to them within one month of my annual review, to avoid any excuse to 'estimate.  They also wanted to increase my direct debit by £21.00 per month!  I complained via a phone call and got my original direct debit reinstated but am still battling to get my refund.  They are without doubt the worst utility company I have ever used in 20+years of dealing similar suppliers but never again.  GOLDFISHMAN

That’s quite strange for EDF as they always refund in full automatically at annual review, my son has just had £400 refunded. Is the reading on the bill actual & is it definitely your annual review & not interim? 

ArbitraryRandom

Ectophile said:

I bought my first flat in 1990 - that's 33 years ago.  

Please don't say that so loud. It makes me realise how old I am

Chrysalis

Ectophile said:

[Deleted User] said:

Are standing charges in some form or other here to stay? To date, I have seen no workable alternatives. Low energy use is not a suitable criterion for standing charge free or social tariffs. Where there is genuine need, welfare support to pay energy bills should come from the Government not energy consumers.

Some people seem to think that standing charges are a recent introduction to pay for green levies.

I bought my first flat in 1990 - that's 33 years ago.  When gas came from British Gas and electricity came from the local electricity board.

And even then we had standing charges.

I remember many years ago (probably well over a decade) I didnt use to pay SC, so they havent always been around, but yeah they here to stay now, the only question is if it they will ever reduce again.

Utilita the benefit only seems to be for actual zero use (empty properties with fuse box switches off, or fully powered via other means) or for sub one unit use, not for typical light users because as has been mentioned they stealthily add it on to the first unit.

[Deleted User]

I remember many years ago (probably well over a decade) I didnt use to pay SC, so they havent always been around, but yeah they here to stay now, the only question is if it they will ever reduce again.

We have always paid a standing charge in some form or other. For decades the charge was included in the unit price. Consumers paid a very high unit price for the first 'X' units and a lower unit price for the rest. The debate about standing charges is nothing new:

https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1982/dec/13/domestic-energy-supplies-standing-charges

Will standing charges fall? Personally, I doubt it. We have to pay for Net Zero. 

Chrysalis

Dolor said:

I remember many years ago (probably well over a decade) I didnt use to pay SC, so they havent always been around, but yeah they here to stay now, the only question is if it they will ever reduce again.

We have always paid a standing charge in some form or other. For decades the charge was included in the unit price. Consumers paid a very high unit price for the first 'X' units and a lower unit price for the rest. The debate about standing charges is nothing new:

https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1982/dec/13/domestic-energy-supplies-standing-charges

Will standing charges fall? Personally, I doubt it. We have to pay for Net Zero. 

Well yeah I accept that, I mean just as in the SC as a item on the bill.

Net Zero and other things can of course be funded in other ways, but the reason I think SC charges wont fall is they are literally the perfect way to implement a stealth tax, the vast majority of people are either ignorant to whats happening to SC or seem to support it (as SC is something that is beneficial to high occupancy households).