Fly Tipping Accident & Reclaimed - What Are My Rights?

Okell

As I asked earlier, what is the specific offence alleged?  Have they quoted a specific section of the legislation or have they just said "fly tipping"?

tightauldgit

pinkshoes said:

whattheduck said:

It's a fixed penalty notice

The items left were a dog bed and some other dog bits that she uses for her business, but to an onlooker I am sure it just looked like bits of crap. 

She is fairly heavily pregnant with twins, so moving around large objects like this is not easy at the moment, I can understand why it happened ...and why I now have a £400 bill to pay, it's just a joke though that we don't live in a world where an accident can't be forgiven even when the error has been remedied - purely because there is money to be made. Meanwhile there's been a sofa at the end of my road for weeks, and no-one is dealing with that. Where does this £400 go? Sigh...

I think your best defence will be to state that you were not fly tipping, and had accidentally left behind some "valuable" items without realising, and that you returned to collect once you realised they were missing. Make it clear that the items were business items, certainly not rubbish, and were back in your possession within X minutes of realising they were missing and are currently still being used by the business.

I would be tempted to let them take you to court if you can easily show the items were of value to the businesses and no different to a person leaving a bag of shopping by accident at a bus stop then having to go back for it.

It would probably just come down to the judge on the day as to whether he believed the story or thought it was a case of someone got caught and then tried to avoid the penalty. Judges hear all sorts of tales of woe every single day and it can just be potluck if you get the sympathetic one or the hard nut. 

I wouldn't go to court without at least having a chat with a solicitor first. I don't know if the legislation even requires it to be deliberate and if 'it was a mistake' would be a defence in law. Again, important to see a solicitor to ensure your defence doesn't just amount to a confession! 

littleboo

If it was a genuine mistake, you may be able to argue that pregnant woman can be prone to forgetfulness and therefore, unless allowance is made for this, she is being treated less favorably because of her pregnancy. That will have any council official running a mile.

whattheduck

Thanks. I'm just going to pay it for her. Like you say, she can do without the stress, she's been in tears about it all day feeling guilty about the extra burden (even though she brings in some money, I'm mostly the sole breadwinner of the family so i'll be dealing with it) we'll just have to chalk it up to a learning experience. And yes just rather unlucky that it happened to be at an actual popular place for fly tipping. She was only there to collect a dog for walking. 

It is just so demotivating. She used to be a firefighter doing 84 hours on call per week for a poxy £400/m which I had to convince her to stop doing, because as if that wasn't bad enough deal as it is, our local parking warden would take most of her wages too. People on our road have 4-6 cars per household it seems, so she was left with no option but to park on the double yellows sometimes, for her to stay within 5 minutes of the station for call outs. Peoples lives at risk, but that's not as important as the council getting their cut.

Just hilarious that an accidental fly tip first-time offence carries a fine equivalent to 1 month wages for a firefighter. 

Everyone wants their fees and fines for menial jobs-worth reasons, no ifs, no buts. No context, or exceptions. 
Oh well, as we know, life isn't fair. Rant over!

Case closed, I suppose

RefluentBeans

whattheduck said:

Thanks. I'm just going to pay it for her. Like you say, she can do without the stress, she's been in tears about it all day feeling guilty about the extra burden (even though she brings in some money, I'm mostly the sole breadwinner of the family so i'll be dealing with it) we'll just have to chalk it up to a learning experience. And yes just rather unlucky that it happened to be at an actual popular place for fly tipping. She was only there to collect a dog for walking. 

It is just so demotivating. She used to be a firefighter doing 84 hours on call per week for a poxy £400/m which I had to convince her to stop doing, because as if that wasn't bad enough deal as it is, our local parking warden would take most of her wages too. People on our road have 4-6 cars per household it seems, so she was left with no option but to park on the double yellows sometimes, for her to stay within 5 minutes of the station for call outs. Peoples lives at risk, but that's not as important as the council getting their cut.

Just hilarious that an accidental fly tip first-time offence carries a fine equivalent to 1 month wages for a firefighter. 

Everyone wants their fees and fines for menial jobs-worth reasons, no ifs, no buts. No context, or exceptions. 
Oh well, as we know, life isn't fair. Rant over!

Case closed, I suppose

I’m really sorry. That does sound rough. Personally - as much as I would love to take a chunk from the council, the simpler route is just accepting the fine. You could potentially explain what happened and see if they can reduce it at all (worse they’ll say is no) and as long as you pay in 14 days it should be fine and not increase in price. 

As you say, it clearly was just one of those days where it seems everything seems to dogpile. On the plus side - tomorrow is a new day. 

TELLIT01

If you have legal assistance on your home insurance it's certainly worth raising with them.

Ditzy_Mitzy

tightauldgit said:

pinkshoes said:

whattheduck said:

It's a fixed penalty notice

The items left were a dog bed and some other dog bits that she uses for her business, but to an onlooker I am sure it just looked like bits of crap. 

She is fairly heavily pregnant with twins, so moving around large objects like this is not easy at the moment, I can understand why it happened ...and why I now have a £400 bill to pay, it's just a joke though that we don't live in a world where an accident can't be forgiven even when the error has been remedied - purely because there is money to be made. Meanwhile there's been a sofa at the end of my road for weeks, and no-one is dealing with that. Where does this £400 go? Sigh...

I think your best defence will be to state that you were not fly tipping, and had accidentally left behind some "valuable" items without realising, and that you returned to collect once you realised they were missing. Make it clear that the items were business items, certainly not rubbish, and were back in your possession within X minutes of realising they were missing and are currently still being used by the business.

I would be tempted to let them take you to court if you can easily show the items were of value to the businesses and no different to a person leaving a bag of shopping by accident at a bus stop then having to go back for it.

It would probably just come down to the judge on the day as to whether he believed the story or thought it was a case of someone got caught and then tried to avoid the penalty. Judges hear all sorts of tales of woe every single day and it can just be potluck if you get the sympathetic one or the hard nut. 

I wouldn't go to court without at least having a chat with a solicitor first. I don't know if the legislation even requires it to be deliberate and if 'it was a mistake' would be a defence in law. Again, important to see a solicitor to ensure your defence doesn't just amount to a confession! 

On the criminal side, which fly tipping is, there is some debate as to whether the offence is one of strict liability.  Some seem to think it is, some do not.  There probably needs to be more case law.  

Irritating case, however, as it shows how genuine errors can be costly.  There probably is something worth fighting for here in principle, however the OP may end up with burnt fingers by trying to do so.  Sorry he's ended up in this position.  

pinkshoes

From the House of Commons library, Fly tipping is defined as:
"Fly-tipping is the illegal disposal of household, industrial, commercial or other ‘controlled’ waste. The waste can be liquid or solid; controlled waste includes garden refuse and larger domestic items such as fridges and mattresses."

The OP did not deliberately "dispose" of anything (it was accidentally left behind), nor was the stuff left behind "waste" as it was quite clearly property belonging to a business. The OP can prove this given they collected it immediately and is using the objects for their business.

Fair enough if you want to pay it for a quiet life, but I would absolutely dispute this.

At the very least you can make your £400 with a newspaper sob story, as quite frankly the council are only chasing after your wife as it's an easy target. 

Alderbank

pinkshoes said:

From the House of Commons library, Fly tipping is defined as:
"Fly-tipping is the illegal disposal of household, industrial, commercial or other ‘controlled’ waste. The waste can be liquid or solid; controlled waste includes garden refuse and larger domestic items such as fridges and mattresses."

The OP did not deliberately "dispose" of anything (it was accidentally left behind), nor was the stuff left behind "waste" as it was quite clearly property belonging to a business. The OP can prove this given they collected it immediately and is using the objects for their business.

Fair enough if you want to pay it for a quiet life, but I would absolutely dispute this.

At the very least you can make your £400 with a newspaper sob story, as quite frankly the council are only chasing after your wife as it's an easy target. 

I agree with everything else you say but I think you are stretching the definition of 'immediately'.

1. The Council officer called to the OP's house 1-2 hrs after the event.
2. The OP phoned his wife to tell her she had been 'fingered'.
3. The OP's wife had driven to a garage to have new tyres fitted. When that was completed she went back to collect her items.

Going to a newspaper is an idea. Do they really pay that much?

Here is one from the Daily Mail about an OAP who was smoking a cigarette while waiting at a bus stop. A bit of ash (not the cigarette butt) fell off the end and presumably landed on the pavement. An Environmental Enforcement officer appeared and issued her with a Fixed Penalty Notice.
She initially refused to pay. The DM reporter noted that the Council said they would take her to court unless she 'coughed up.'
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1303477/Smoker-faces-2-500-fine-dropping-cigarette-ash-pavement.html

tightauldgit

pinkshoes said:

From the House of Commons library, Fly tipping is defined as:
"Fly-tipping is the illegal disposal of household, industrial, commercial or other ‘controlled’ waste. The waste can be liquid or solid; controlled waste includes garden refuse and larger domestic items such as fridges and mattresses."

The OP did not deliberately "dispose" of anything (it was accidentally left behind), nor was the stuff left behind "waste" as it was quite clearly property belonging to a business. The OP can prove this given they collected it immediately and is using the objects for their business.

Fair enough if you want to pay it for a quiet life, but I would absolutely dispute this.

At the very least you can make your £400 with a newspaper sob story, as quite frankly the council are only chasing after your wife as it's an easy target. 

On the other hand, the definition says nothing of deliberate, it was taken out of the car and left behind which would certainly constitute disposal if you just left it there and once you've disposed of something it's probably waste by definition. 

Certainly if it was a penalty charge i'd be disputing it but when the only route to dispute it is to go to court on a criminal charge then I can certainly see the appeal of just settling it.