Fly Tipping Accident & Reclaimed - What Are My Rights?

whattheduck

Hello,

I have a bit of a strange problem. I got a knock at the door yesterday by a uniformed worker with a bodycam asking for my wife. Said he was from my local council and no reason not to believe that (said as much on uniform and showed me a card) apparently she had been found fly tipping... we go to the tip all the time, so I thought this was very strange. 

I called her immediately, she said she did, by accident. She is a dog walker and had taken some things out of her card in order to make room to arrange a dog crate better, and simply forgot to put the other things back in the car again. This was not things she wanted to dispose of. 

Here is where it gets weird...

This person arrived on my doorstep within 1-2 hours of this happening. When I called my wife she was in the middle of getting a slow tyre puncture repaired (having one of those days!) After this she returned to the site - to find all of the items reported were still there. 

So she collected them all back. This means surely that no harm has been done. 

Knowing how the council rules usually work, I am going to guess this doesn't matter. How they can get to my house before anyone has even cleared the "damage" I don't know - but am I legally liable to pay this £400 fine when no damage has been done? 

I am guessing they found us because the man said there was a lot of fly tipping at that location every day, and one of the neighbors was watching her at the time which she found weird. So perhaps they noted her registration plate and reported her, I don't know. 

Any advice would be good. I don't want to risk a criminal record so probably will pay it anyway, but as there are 14 days I thought I would see if it's worth appealing somehow. There doesn't even seem to be an appeal process. 

Thanks for any advice!

whattheduck

Sorry appreciate this is probably not "consumer" rights, i searched for similar posts and saw one in here, so just went with it! 

Alderbank

I'm afraid your wife committed the offence prima facie when she deposited the items in the street and drove off.

Were the items of value, either monetary value or personal value? If so she might be able to claim in mitigation that it was a genuine mistake and as soon as she realised the items were missing she returned for them.

If they are of no real value it might seem to the court that when you called her to say she had been 'nicked' she hurried back to remove the evidence.

I don't think 'there was no harm done' will fly as a defence. It was unfortunate that she chose a spot which was already popular for flytipping.

Okell

So what did the enforcement officer say would happen next?

Did he give you any paperwork?

Did you get an offer of a fixed penalty?

You were there when he visited you, so what happened?

[Edit: And what offence and legislation have they quoted?  Is it s87 Environmental Protection Act 1990 (legislation.gov.uk)?]

the_lunatic_is_in_my_head

Fly tipping is the "illegal deposit of any waste onto land that does not have a licence to accept it"

Any chance of arguing the items were not waste?

I think if you don't pay you have to argue your case in court, would be worth checking the consequences of this, i.e does the potential fine increase (which can be unlimited) and any risk of prison. 

The council are unlikely to be compassionate, probably best to pay the £400 all things considered.  

tightauldgit

What is it you've been issued with? 

A Fixed Penalty Notice or a Penalty Charge Notice? I think if it's the former then you can only go to court to have your case heard with the possible outcome being a criminal record, but if it's the latter there's usually a right to appeal with the worst outcome being a bigger penalty charge. I would have thought for the incident you suggest it would probably be the latter?

TELLIT01

At least in this case there was a situation where items had been taken out of a vehicle and left, so there is some evidence to support a charge of 'fly tipping'.  There are cases reported from all over the country where people have been charged with littering even where an item has fallen from a pocket and the person has gone to pick it up again.  Money making certainly seems to be the driver in cases like that.

whattheduck

tightauldgit said:

What is it you've been issued with? 

A Fixed Penalty Notice or a Penalty Charge Notice? I think if it's the former then you can only go to court to have your case heard with the possible outcome being a criminal record, but if it's the latter there's usually a right to appeal with the worst outcome being a bigger penalty charge. I would have thought for the incident you suggest it would probably be the latter?

It's a fixed penalty notice

The items left were a dog bed and some other dog bits that she uses for her business, but to an onlooker I am sure it just looked like bits of crap. 

She is fairly heavily pregnant with twins, so moving around large objects like this is not easy at the moment, I can understand why it happened ...and why I now have a £400 bill to pay, it's just a joke though that we don't live in a world where an accident can't be forgiven even when the error has been remedied - purely because there is money to be made. Meanwhile there's been a sofa at the end of my road for weeks, and no-one is dealing with that. Where does this £400 go? Sigh...

pinkshoes

whattheduck said:

It's a fixed penalty notice

The items left were a dog bed and some other dog bits that she uses for her business, but to an onlooker I am sure it just looked like bits of crap. 

She is fairly heavily pregnant with twins, so moving around large objects like this is not easy at the moment, I can understand why it happened ...and why I now have a £400 bill to pay, it's just a joke though that we don't live in a world where an accident can't be forgiven even when the error has been remedied - purely because there is money to be made. Meanwhile there's been a sofa at the end of my road for weeks, and no-one is dealing with that. Where does this £400 go? Sigh...

I think your best defence will be to state that you were not fly tipping, and had accidentally left behind some "valuable" items without realising, and that you returned to collect once you realised they were missing. Make it clear that the items were business items, certainly not rubbish, and were back in your possession within X minutes of realising they were missing and are currently still being used by the business.

I would be tempted to let them take you to court if you can easily show the items were of value to the businesses and no different to a person leaving a bag of shopping by accident at a bus stop then having to go back for it.

user1977

whattheduck said:

I don't want to risk a criminal record so probably will pay it anyway

Why would you get a criminal record? Is someone claiming you were there with your wife?

RefluentBeans

I agree - if there is a perceived value of the property you may have a chance to defend yourself. Did she collect the items after you told her the council have turned up? If it was before then I would think that there is a more likey chance you’ll get someone to believe in the value. But if it was after it just looks like you’ve been caught and are attempting to blag it’s worth something. Plus if there’s people watching the area closely (or a camera) then I would expect they actually take notice of times people come and go. 

Ultimately if it goes to court, then it could go either way. There are mitigating circumstances that t someone can view in your favour (wife being pregnant, going back [if before you were told] and potentially the tire of she noticed it at that point [but that’s not clear if she notice the tire before she left the site]). But if the items are low value then I think you’ll be up against it, and a used dog bed is probably on the lower end of the value unfortunately. 

You could of course consult with a solicitor for ad hoc advice. If it’s £50 for an hours consultation still less than the £400 and they can give you actual legal advice, and their experience. 

This board will give you opinions (including my own); some think you’ve got a good case to defend. Personally I don’t rate your chances in court, and if you can survive without the £400 it she’s the stress (especially with bringing a new baby into the house).