Advisability of buying electric car at this point in time

henry24

Very rare for me to fly but I can't see electric flights across the ocean in my lifetime but if they do I would fly. I'm not against electric vehicles I just don't think things have been thought out first,tonight 45% of the electricity is produced by fossil fuel how is that clean 

MacPingu1986

henry24 said:

Very rare for me to fly but I can't see electric flights across the ocean in my lifetime but if they do I would fly. I'm not against electric vehicles I just don't think things have been thought out first,tonight 45% of the electricity is produced by fossil fuel how is that clean 

It's much cleaner.

The UKs fossil fuel generation is almost entirely gas turbine stations (CCGTs). A CCGT is much more efficient (c50% for fuel burned) that a small ICE Engine (c15-20% of fuel burned). There are also less pollutants released generally from burning gas compared to petrol. Then we factor in that power stations have all sorts of extra scrubbers and other anti-pollution devices fitted to them to reduce emissions further, and finally they're built pretty far away from population centers so the pollution that is emitted has much less of an effect on health than pollution emitted directly onto the streets we live and work on.

All of this combined significantly reduces emissions even though the underlying source of the power is fossil fuel, *and* the fossil fuel percentage of the UK grid mix is shrinking all the time.

henry24

But my 29 month old car is also clean compared with cars from 20 or more years ago, I've seen 3 people gas themselves with a pipe from the exhaust you don't see that now
Didn't I read something not long ago saying that the air in London streets was cleaner than the underground but they don't mention shutting it

Herzlos

Above ground air is always going to be better than under ground air, because of, well, all of the extra air.

Your new car in 20 years time is going to be much cleaner than your 2 year old car now. What's that got to do with anything?

Are you done with your what-ifs?

CKhalvashi

henry24 said:

CKhalvashi said:

henry24 said:

CKhalvashi said:

henry24 said:

Earlier in this thread the subject of lorries came up which nobody has answered now I've something else, over the last 3 days I've been driving a combine using 47 litres an hour of diesel how's that going to work with electric 
Unless every vehicle is made to change then there's no point and if we have no food then so be, if we shut all the shops that will save the planet 
I think everyone should have the right to decide what vehicle they drive and not be told what to do 

As something I don't know a lot about, what is the power output on that at a typical rpm?

What is the average hours of use daily also?

I can attempt to calculate on that number a battery requirement and associated weight.

You have asked a question here I didn't realise I want to know the answer to!

CKhalvashi  it's a 8.7 litre 6 cylinder developing 276kv at 2100 rpm, length of day varies with the weather the last few days I've done 2 12 hours and a 15 it's now parked up until weather improves. Altogether during the harvest period it will do around 240 hours 

If that is the actual output in use, I agree that you may struggle at the moment to get something within the weight you need.

The next generation of batteries are likely to be acceptable for the job though.

If the actual power use is around 100kW, then a 1MW battery will weigh 5-6t and should last around 10 hours in actual use. That is around £150k of battery.

Throughout the year with tractors, vans/lorries for farmers markets etc, something with similar power output to this should work for you. I have no idea on the cost of plumbing it in, but a look online shows it shouldn't be too high. https://aec.energy/charge-complex-t/en

Depending on conditions the engine is working between 60 and 80% of power how this compares to your figures I don't know but for a farmer to spend £150k on a battery it's not going to happen 
I've just looked up the neighbours combine and it's 515kw what battery will it need 

At 80%the battery will last 5 hours.

At 60% will last about 8 hours.

The question has to be what £150k is as a proportion of the equipment cost and what the cost savings are of this.

EVs are cheaper to maintain than ICEV's.

This may be a compelling case for hydrogen also, there is no point in this discussion to discount alternative green fuels.

Martyn1981

CKhalvashi said:

henry24 said:

CKhalvashi said:

henry24 said:

CKhalvashi said:

henry24 said:

Earlier in this thread the subject of lorries came up which nobody has answered now I've something else, over the last 3 days I've been driving a combine using 47 litres an hour of diesel how's that going to work with electric 
Unless every vehicle is made to change then there's no point and if we have no food then so be, if we shut all the shops that will save the planet 
I think everyone should have the right to decide what vehicle they drive and not be told what to do 

As something I don't know a lot about, what is the power output on that at a typical rpm?

What is the average hours of use daily also?

I can attempt to calculate on that number a battery requirement and associated weight.

You have asked a question here I didn't realise I want to know the answer to!

CKhalvashi  it's a 8.7 litre 6 cylinder developing 276kv at 2100 rpm, length of day varies with the weather the last few days I've done 2 12 hours and a 15 it's now parked up until weather improves. Altogether during the harvest period it will do around 240 hours 

If that is the actual output in use, I agree that you may struggle at the moment to get something within the weight you need.

The next generation of batteries are likely to be acceptable for the job though.

If the actual power use is around 100kW, then a 1MW battery will weigh 5-6t and should last around 10 hours in actual use. That is around £150k of battery.

Throughout the year with tractors, vans/lorries for farmers markets etc, something with similar power output to this should work for you. I have no idea on the cost of plumbing it in, but a look online shows it shouldn't be too high. https://aec.energy/charge-complex-t/en

Depending on conditions the engine is working between 60 and 80% of power how this compares to your figures I don't know but for a farmer to spend £150k on a battery it's not going to happen 
I've just looked up the neighbours combine and it's 515kw what battery will it need 

At 80%the battery will last 5 hours.

At 60% will last about 8 hours.

The question has to be what £150k is as a proportion of the equipment cost and what the cost savings are of this.

EVs are cheaper to maintain than ICEV's.

This may be a compelling case for hydrogen also, there is no point in this discussion to discount alternative green fuels.

Totally agree with you, especially about the operating costs. I do genuinely hope that the batts will be swappable for agricultural vehicles, as that would reduce purchase costs, just like the ranges of battery electric tools.

Apologies, if I appear to be overly dismissive of H2. I actually agree that we need to research all possibilities. It's just that the H2 option has been tried for a long time in other roles, such as buses and trains, and the trials are not going well. The main problem though will always be the high cost of production, due to the excessive amounts of leccy needed.

I used to think that agriculture may be an edge case where H2 may be an option. But given the issues with transportation to site, or availability nearby, this seems less likely now, but definitely one to watch and learn. There would also be the cost of the on site infrastructure to cope with H2 fuel trucks, and for the pressurization and re-fueling of vehicles. Plus the cost of tanker trucks and drivers, since a max weight H2 tube trailer truck can only carry enough H2 to fuel about 35 Toyota Mirai HFC cars. Almost certain to be more than the cost of batteries.

Another option, might be to produce the H2 on site, but then the infrastructure, including the electrolyzers, would probably be an order of magnitude higher than batts.

Whilst the 2030 rules won't (I believe) impact agriculture, it's possible that by that date, batteries will be half the size, half the weight and half the cost, and the learning curve does seem to be leaning in that direction ...... well, we can at least hope. Exciting times.

WellKnownSid

Martyn1981 said:
Whilst the 2030 rules won't (I believe) impact agriculture, it's possible that by that date, batteries will be half the size, half the weight and half the cost, and the learning curve does seem to be leaning in that direction ...... well, we can at least hope. Exciting times.

It is exciting.  As someone said recently - it's very much like the end of steam, playing out in our own lifetime.  Fascinating to be a part of.

Goudy

The cost of a new BEV is far higher than an equivalent ICE.
As cars depreciate as a percentage over time, it still means used vehicles will be the same sort of percentage more than a used ICE and still be out of reach for many.

Yes, that's normal, unless of course BEV's depreciate faster, there is some evidence of that, which I guess is a positive for those people.

There are currently around 673 used electric cars for sale under £10k on Autotrader compared to 126,000 petrol and diesel (not counting hybrid).
That's 0.5%.

Increase the budget to £25k, which to be honest is a new car to many and that is 1.3%.

£50k and that jumps to 3.6%.

Evidence suggests my comment regarding market penetration of the middle and lower market, however negative isn't far from the truth and at normal rates of deprecation that market is going to be left looking at far older cars and it will happen far slower than expected.

The average daily driving distance is 15 miles, is it negative to point out that might mean half might do something else, some of those less and some more, with some even doing much more?

As for the appropriate infrastructure, yes the government are investing nearly a billion into chargers and they are coming on line, that is positive.
But not it seems the infrastructure to power them.
Electric car owners issued dire warning by motorway services boss - 'It's a major problem' (yahoo.com)
Tesla charger launch at Pease Pottage Moto services delayed | The Argus
Oh dear another negative, but I didn't write the article and it isn't me that can't supply the power to these chargers.


But my reasoning from the very start has little to do with my actual feelings for BEV's, I would have the very same feeling towards petrol or diesel if the situation was the same.
I would probably buy one if it was really cost effective for me but as I say, my concerns are the cost effectiveness of them as a solution for all our transport needs.
I understand it suits some and that it could suit more but also not everything or one.
You might consider these edge cases as you don't think it effects you, I don't.

For me the cost is currently 60 to 75pkw or more than double what I normally pay for electricity before I factor in the increased cost of the vehicle, that's not negative, it's not really my fault. It's just a fact.
The same fact road freight stare at.

Yes, I could probably find cheaper alternatives, but I would have to travel to them, quite often unnecessarily. So it defeats the object really and to be honest, I don't spend that amount of time at places like supermarkets (no do I want to) to make it worthwhile.  At best it would account for perhaps 2 or less percent of my needs and I can't be the only one though.

I have read many points that have, to an extent eased some of those concerns, mainly relating to a possible future but not the present.
I am not convinced that relying on materials we don't have that are controlled by dubious governments, our own government policies that are half baked at best (but probably non existent),  while all of us might pay through nose for it and it only financially benefits some.
Add in the obvious need to be energy secure, are we totally on the right track?
You might think so and that is fair enough, I don't.

I'm not that sorry either if you don't think like me and consider me negative or anti just because your point of view or your current situation isn't the same as mine or millions of others.
I don't think I have tried to knock anyone else point of view by suggesting they might be deluded, anti or negative for not agreeing with me just for the sake of argument.

Hopefully more goes right than goes wrong and we are not stuck in a cycle of baling out problems and flaws that have been inflicted on us, financially, politically or otherwise for years to come.

WellKnownSid

To be fair, there are 44,500 charging points in the UK - the “dire warning” that a handful of Tesla charging points aren’t wired up at four motorway service stations is simply a relief for the few families that won’t have to be forced to pay £6.79 for a packet of wine gums this summer…

Goudy

We have to accept the chargers were probably installed with some sort of incentive.
And what about grants for EV's and home chargers.
Neither of these came from a benevolent individual.

Like I said, if it works for you, brilliant, I am happy for you.
If it doesn't or doesn't yet, you will still pay towards it.

But that mustn't be stated out loud or can you ask for it to work more people, otherwise someone might find a label for you.