Advisability of buying electric car at this point in time

mgfvvc

henry24 said:

Earlier in this thread the subject of lorries came up which nobody has answered

The question on lorries has been quite clearly answered.

henry24 said:

I think everyone should have the right to decide what vehicle they drive and not be told what to do 

No MOT tests, no safety standards, no pollution standards?

henry24

And what was the answer to lorries driving 450 miles a day and parking in a lay-by with no facilities let alone charges 
What has the mot got to do with the fuel you use 

henry24

Martyn1981 yes 276kw. Sometimes it's working hard and struggling for power how would that work 

Martyn1981

henry24 said:

Martyn1981 yes 276kw. Sometimes it's working hard and struggling for power how would that work 

Presumably much better with a more powerful leccy motor, with max torque available at any rpms. I totally understand why you might currently have your doubts about batteries, and energy storage, but when it comes to power, leccy motors beat diesel engines hands down.

As explained previously, that's why, when you need absolutely massive amounts of power/torque, you use a leccy motor, be it a giant dump truck, train, or huge ship, powered via diesel-electric combination.

But ideally, where possible, you'd want to ditch the diesel generator and use a large battery. This is already happening with some mining trucks, trains, and even 'small' large ships.

China Launches First 700 TEU Electric Containership for Yangtze Service

Crewless cargo: the world’s first autonomous electric cargo ship

mgfvvc

henry24 said:

What has the mot got to do with the fuel you use 

The comment was that everyone should have the right to decide what vehicle they drive and not be told what to do. While the main discussion is about electric cars vs ICE, if you say you have the right to decide what vehicle you drive and shouldn't be told what to do, then that applies equally to MOTs, safety standards, etc.

henry24

You're sounding like the sort of person that needs the government to tell you that the sun may be hot or you might get wet when it rains 

scaredofdebt

I've been leasing a MG5 EV for about a year now and it's the best car I've ever "owned", but I wouldn't buy one.

I'm paying just under £300 a month over 4 years, I am saving £1-150 a month over petrol (8p a mile for electric, vs around 14p petrol).  I don't have to worry about depreciation, I will simply lease another car, or maybe buy one when the term ends.

I would consider buying second hand if I could get a good enough deal, you don't mention budget or your mileage which are both crucial.

If you rarely do over ~160 miles a day it's a no brainer, many EVs will do that mileage without needing a charge even in winter, if you drive carefully, ie 60 on the motorway etc.  Obviously check the exact model you are looking at as the old Nissan Leaf for example has a shorter range as do some of the older models.

I do 20k miles a year so well over average mileage but I have only had to use public chargers a handful of times, if I couldn't charge at home (30p / kWh) I would not get an EV.  Public chargers are expensive at around 50-70p / kWh.

For me depreciation (from new) is an unknown due to the way the technology is advancing, but second hand if you can get a good deal that's less of a worry.

Love the fact I never have to go to a petrol station as it charges overnight at home and the cost savings, plus much more relaxing to drive than ICE.  But as I say, if I had to use public chargers more than once or twice a month I'd be less inclined to own an EV, there is still some work required on the infrastructure.

I'd imagine in 2/3 years with the new generation of batteries in the pipeline plus faster chargers these issues and range anxiety won't be a thing any more.

CKhalvashi

henry24 said:

CKhalvashi said:

henry24 said:

Earlier in this thread the subject of lorries came up which nobody has answered now I've something else, over the last 3 days I've been driving a combine using 47 litres an hour of diesel how's that going to work with electric 
Unless every vehicle is made to change then there's no point and if we have no food then so be, if we shut all the shops that will save the planet 
I think everyone should have the right to decide what vehicle they drive and not be told what to do 

As something I don't know a lot about, what is the power output on that at a typical rpm?

What is the average hours of use daily also?

I can attempt to calculate on that number a battery requirement and associated weight.

You have asked a question here I didn't realise I want to know the answer to!

CKhalvashi  it's a 8.7 litre 6 cylinder developing 276kv at 2100 rpm, length of day varies with the weather the last few days I've done 2 12 hours and a 15 it's now parked up until weather improves. Altogether during the harvest period it will do around 240 hours 

If that is the actual output in use, I agree that you may struggle at the moment to get something within the weight you need.

The next generation of batteries are likely to be acceptable for the job though.

If the actual power use is around 100kW, then a 1MW battery will weigh 5-6t and should last around 10 hours in actual use. That is around £150k of battery.

Throughout the year with tractors, vans/lorries for farmers markets etc, something with similar power output to this should work for you. I have no idea on the cost of plumbing it in, but a look online shows it shouldn't be too high. https://aec.energy/charge-complex-t/en

Goudy

Perhaps the HGV question yet unanswered was the temperature controlled freight?

It's ok working out the power usage of a tractor to pull a normal load down the road but these units also power the temperature control of the trailers.

I guess a new type of charger would be needed for these, one where the batteries can charge and trailer unit can also be plugged in to maintain temperature while the batteries charge.
I guess they could even have them at load and unload points, but out on the road or on a driver break that power is going to have to come from the tractor unit or other motor.

You're looking at something like a space of 85 square metre trailers and temperature control between +5 and -30 degrees C, that takes a lot of power.

Pretty much all our chilled and frozen produce travels by road.
A fair share of that is multidrop, so these temperature controlled units have to work a lot harder to meet critical control points as temps fluctuate more. If they fail to meet the CCPs produce is rejected, ends up as waste with an increase in costs which we all pay for at the tills.

On another point regarding plant, JCB who are probably the market leaders are turning to hydrogen combustion engines.
I guess some battery plant and tractors might work for some, but if you're out on a site or on a large farm, most of which would be off grid, charging those batteries are going to be a problem.
Their power isn't solely used as propulsion but also powers the equipment, so efficiency comparisons with diesel is difficult to work out, plus quite often this sort of plant needs to be put to work as close to 24 hours a day at times to be profitable.
You can't sit there while a crop spoils so you can charge a tractor or combine, otherwise you know what, costs increase at the till.
 
We all might have to start considering Old Macdonald and Bob the Builder as a bit anti EV.

Seem JCB also have the governments backing, so hardly a busted flush yet.
Shapps challenges Bamford to accelerate hydrogen power (theconstructionindex.co.uk)

Martyn1981

Goudy said:

Perhaps the HGV question yet unanswered was the temperature controlled freight?

It's ok working out the power usage of a tractor to pull a normal load down the road but these units also power the temperature control of the trailers.

I guess a new type of charger would be needed for these, one where the batteries can charge and trailer unit can also be plugged in to maintain temperature while the batteries charge.
I guess they could even have them at load and unload points, but out on the road or on a driver break that power is going to have to come from the tractor unit or other motor.

You're looking at something like a space of 85 square metre trailers and temperature control between +5 and -30 degrees C, that takes a lot of power.

Pretty much all our chilled and frozen produce travels by road.
A fair share of that is multidrop, so these temperature controlled units have to work a lot harder to meet critical control points as temps fluctuate more. If they fail to meet the CCPs produce is rejected, ends up as waste with an increase in costs which we all pay for at the tills.

On another point regarding plant, JCB who are probably the market leaders are turning to hydrogen combustion engines.
I guess some battery plant and tractors might work for some, but if you're out on a site or on a large farm, most of which would be off grid, charging those batteries are going to be a problem.
Their power isn't solely used as propulsion but also powers the equipment, so efficiency comparisons with diesel is difficult to work out, plus quite often this sort of plant needs to be put to work as close to 24 hours a day at times to be profitable.
You can't sit there while a crop spoils so you can charge a tractor or combine, otherwise you know what, costs increase at the till.
 
We all might have to start considering Old Macdonald and Bob the Builder as a bit anti EV.

Seem JCB also have the governments backing, so hardly a busted flush yet.
Shapps challenges Bamford to accelerate hydrogen power (theconstructionindex.co.uk)

Sorry, didn't answer the chilled comment, as I didn't realise that was a negative. Bear in mind that a diesel truck, at best is 40% efficient, when travelling at speed in the perfect gear/rpm combo. So the generation of leccy is going to be about half as efficient as that, so ~20% at best. So for chilled/refrigerated goods, BEV's would be vastly more efficient, and save even greater amounts of fuel and emissions/pollution.

There was a vid from Fully Charged a few years ago about a bus fleet that was adding batts and some solar panels to their diesel buses. The reason being that they have a high leccy load - from memory it was to do with navigation/location,  equipment to run/monitor ticketing and passes, and also some cooling/heating. Since buses are rarely running at their most efficient, and spend a lot of time at low speeds and stationary, I think they estimated their leccy generation at about 5%-10% efficiency. Hence the non motive electrical additions.

The same applies to farm and construction vehicles that are using power take off to operate their equipment and hydraulics. Electric power will be far more efficient, and also fuel not being drained by an always running diesel engine.

But as mentioned earlier, throwing out edge cases, proves nothing. If there's a role that a BEV isn't suitable for, and a diesel vehicle (operating on bio or synth diesel) is better, then that doesn't 'prove' that BEV's aren't superior in the vast number of roles, it just shows that we can all think of problems.




Yes, Lord Bamford is very keen on hydrogen engines, I've watched a few vids on it. He's going for the really 'interesting' approach of HICE (hydrogen ICE), so even less efficient than HFCV's. He's also talking about running fuel trucks to provide the H2 for these vehicles on site. From what I saw and heard, they are very noisy vehicles. Going back to the comparison of HFVC's v's BEV's, then operating a HICE will be nearly twice as inefficient. So we will need around 4-6x as much green leccy generation.

Note that Lord Bamford has close ties to the Gov, who are keen to explore the H2 for transport angle, even though it is failing already in most applications.

As previously mentioned, BEV heavy plant is already rolling out, back hoes, dump trucks, excavators, even a Chinese bulldozer.

And for smaller 'heavy' plant, why not take a look at JCB's range of BEV vehicles, and their portable battery pack for helping with recharges. Also note, that noise and emission restrictions will operate on many sites, so BEV's can operate when combustioin vehicles can't.

Regarding sites that don't have an electrical supply, then much larger batteries can be transported to site. In fact this is something that happens already for some large events, like musical festivals. So yes, you may need to truck batts in and out, the same as H2 in and out, but it's fair to say that a source of leccy for the charging will be nearer than any H2 supply.

JCB - ALL YOU NEED TO KNOW ABOUT OUR ELECTRIC MACHINERY