If you own both sides.

user1977

orangeflowers said:

Section62 said:

orangeflowers said:

We have discovered out title plan red line is not inline with our fence by quite a considerable distance (approx 30sqm would be the land size.)

If the plan is one produced by Land Registry then be aware they normally only show a 'general boundary' based on OS mapping which is not that accurate.  The idea of these plans is to give an idea where the plot is and approximate shape, not the exact position of the boundaries.

Unless the line (not area) is grossly out (say 2m or more) then it is probaby more likely the plan is inaccurate rather than the neighbour owning part of your garden.

If the plan shows a 'determined boundary' or you have another plan which shows the boundary with exact measurements from other features (such as the house wall), and that one has the boundary in a different position, then you might have the risk of the neighbour trying to claim there was an error in the position of the fence that they (presumably) put up themselves.

What I find odd about the title plan is that the red line intersects the Ordnance Survey Map lines, (rather than running along the straight black shown on the OS map, the red line has been drawn like 2 steps. Which intersects the OS line.  lt appears to have very deliberately, as some point, drawn this way.  

Bear in mind it's quite likely that the legal boundary was drawn up before the OS mapped the boundary. The Land Registry don't change their mind about it just because the OS has drawn a parallel feature in a slightly different position. Think of a new development - the developer draws up all the title plans long before the OS maps the finished estate.

orangeflowers

theoretica said:

When you bought was it first separate registration of the land?  So the seller was the one who had the boundary drawn for the land registry?

When we brought the house, it was already registered. The previous owner, owned the undeveloped land first, and then brought 'my house' he lived here for about 14 years before he sold it to us, 2 years ago. 

Section62

orangeflowers said:

Section62 said:

What I find odd about the title plan is that the red line intersects the Ordnance Survey Map lines, (rather than running along the straight black shown on the OS map, the red line has been drawn like 2 steps. Which intersects the OS line.  lt appears to have very deliberately, as some point, drawn this way.  

Is this the title plan you were given when you purchased the property, or a copy you've recently downloaded from the LR site?

Oddities like this can sometimes happen where the original title plan was drawn using an older version of the OS mapping which showed the boundary feature in a different way to how it is shown on later revisions of the OS mapping.  The OS mapping is usually drawn up based on what the cartographer 'sees' using an aerial photo - what they are seeing is not necessarily the legal boundary.  So for example, if the developer put up a temporary fence with a dog-leg in it, it would be possible for the OS mapping to gain a 'boundary' line with a dog-leg.  If LR then used that version of the mapping to create the title plan, the red-line boundary would potentially feature that dog-leg.  It is important not to read too much in to these OS maps, they simply aren't produced with the degree of accuracy people generally expect.

orangeflowers

housebuyer143 said:

I imagine the land was fenced now as it was when you bought it? 

It was fenced on 2 of the 3 sides of the garden. There is no fence to the East side. There is a bush which runs 1/2 of the way along , but you can easily walk through to the undeveloped land.  We attached some chicken wire to this side ourselves last year, as we took ownership of a dog and didn't want him to escape. So it currently has a chicken wire fence on this side. 

user1977

Ah. When you said it wasn't in line with "your fence", it might have been helpful to mention that it's a fence you had just put up! Surely the simpler interpretation of your problem is just that you've put the fence in the wrong place?

Land_Registry

A few things that might help your reading of the title plan.
OS survey and map the physical features in place. They then create a plan with solid lines and pecked (dashed) lines. Solid is for any feature over a foot in height. Pecked for under a foot so kerb edges, path or track etc. OS details aren’t mapped to show ownership for example. Just what was there when surveyed. 

LR title plans use the OS plan as a starting point onto which we then map the registered extent. If there’s a pecked line added by us then that’s a plotted line usually added to enable us to draw a coloured line such as red edging or some other colour. 

Registered extents are generally based on the deeds provided on first registration. Whilst they can often match OS details they don’t always and certainly don’t have to, so nothing “odd” when they don’t.
The adjoining title plan probably isn’t available online as it’s too large (file size). You can apply for a copy by post instead and see what’s registered and to whom. The neighbour could claim AP at any time but whether he’d be successful would depend on more than simply where your current fence line is. And if he claims land registered in your title then you would be notified at your address on the register if it got to the final stages after consideration of his claim and a survey/site visit 
If you are going to move your fencing or put up a new one then I’d always have a chat with the neighbour to make them aware and to address any concerns they or you might have. Putting a fence up on your own land is often suggested and can work but a lot of people then see that as the legal boundary, newly defined and it can create future issues when new neighbours arrive or you are selling. So worth considering sorting it out now and formalising things as appropriate 

sheramber

When we were purchasing our last house our solicitor noticed that the boundary on the land registry plan did not agree with OS.

The plot had been part of an old croft and the crofter redeveloped the old croft house and fenced off an area of garden for his own use. . The rest was left as a filed.

Our seller had inherited the house and field many years before.

We advised the seller of the situation and he immediately agreed  to the fence on two sides being moved to the correct position per the land registry title.

ThisIsWeird

Blimey.

If an OS map doesn't necessarily show the actual boundaries unless they are physical, and what they do show could also be wrong, and LR maps are inaccurate at best, what does a land surveyor use to arrive at the 'correct' boundary? Or will that often be a 'best guestimate' too?

How much do LSs typically charge for such a job?

Land_Registry

ThisIsWeird said:

Blimey.

If an OS map doesn't necessarily show the actual boundaries unless they are physical, and what they do show could also be wrong, and LR maps are inaccurate at best, what does a land surveyor use to arrive at the 'correct' boundary? Or will that often be a 'best guestimate' too?

How much do LSs typically charge for such a job?

A land surveyor is doing what OS do and adding more specifics, such as a report, depending what the remit is. 

Arriving at the ‘correct’ legal boundary on your own, whether you are OS, LS, HMLR or the owner is nigh on impossible. To arrive there you really need the adjoining landowners to be in agreement as it’s always about interpretation of the legal deeds/title, plus the actual lie of the land and what’s happened over time 

Land law in England & Wales and the way that has developed over the centuries generally causes such a ‘blimey’ reaction 
See our PG 40 series of supplements for a better understanding of all things plans/boundaries but Sup 3 in particular 
https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/land-registry-plans-boundaries

orangeflowers

In this example here, the green part shows land has been removed in the bottom left corner.  Does the  straight black line (highlighted in red and green)on the left show where the boundary is? Or does this garden follow the edge of the green line, then come in slightly to follow the right hand edge of the red line?

 The red line also extends north beyond the fence line marked on the OS map, them comes across to the left cutting into the OS fence line, before extending north beyond the fence line again.  Are we right in thinking the area marked in red belongs to the title plan and the fences are in the wrong places?