64% cut from Partial Refund while in Warranty

Otter23 · 18 July at 10:05AM

Hi all need some clarification on what my rights are regarding a fault with a product.

I bought a Graphic Card for £1400, and after many emails back and forth to the retailer, who I expected to deal with the fault I have with the product, I have been told my market value on the item is only £509, which is 34% of RRP and still in warranty for another 13 months. This item was a top spec model, and I would argue should last minimum of 3 years manfucturers warranty and way more beyond that.

I found that the retailer was trying to offer me a refurbished model that has no history of whether it was a display model, a restocking fee or dropped down the stairs by a previous owner, the retailer does not know. Unlike cars, GPUs don't exactly have a MOT history.

Now I looked on the website and they had this same refurbished card for £800 hidden in the direct searches (not listed in categories), and the model they had was £350 cheaper than the alternative cooled product (£1,150) both are refurbishes and both are identical in terms of performance. I enquired about why the card was cheaper and is this due to 'condition' and was later told "no, the price doesn't reflect the condition", which I was then told yesterday by another person over the phone, "it 'may' reflect the condition of the card". So I was lied to.
The last person I spoke with, stated "it's cheaper because we're losing money on it", I did suggest that "how can one model lose money and the other stays high, is the box it comes in blocking the warehouse door?", they have no humor at this retailer.

Not being satisfied with a refurbishment with no history, I asked for an exchange of another model or a fair refund, I was offered only £509 inc VAT.

I then emailed to say this refund was highly unfair as I can't even get within 80% of what I had previously for that value in terms of another product to replace it. Even the second hand market of the same card with no warranty and "used for mining" starts at £650, I feel they are giving me a low partial refund to force me to go elsewhere, or take the unknown condition product from them.

When I questioned why I wasn't offered the same value they have for a card, it was "it's based on your usage and warranty", and when I retorted with, "so whats the usage on that model you have?", they couldn't answer.

I have now been told because I opened my Graphics card up to repaste and use a different cooling solution for 23 months. (The manufacturer allows this) And only now noted the stock fans were faulty after reinstalling the stock fans last week, they now need "manufacturer needs to look at it and make sure your cooler didn't break it", And yet before they offered to swap to "cut out the middle man" and only after I made a fuss about the absurd refund evaluation, did they need to send it off, despite me informing them before that I swapped the cooler, as I am allowed to. The cooler I used, was on the same order as the GPU, so they are fully aware of this cooler used.

The GPU is working but the fans are stuck at 100%, and this is a well known fault with the product (google "3080ti FTW3 fans stuck 100%") and I suspect this fault was there at day 1 of receiving the goods, I never tested the stock cooler till last Tuesday, so that's a oversight on my part. But the argument the retailer has made is "we won't test the card to see the fans are stuck, until the manufacturer looks first", when in reality, all the etailer would need to do is plug it in to a machine, switch on and see it "works" aside from the fans at 3000RPM, it's not rocket science, but they seem to think it is, but only now after I saw and commented they were trying to trade up using my card.

I feel the retailer is being malicious and now wants me to go away rather than deal with the warranty they should uphold. And I would argue that by offering me only 34% of it's original value, they can resell it after sending it themselves to the manufacturer. It's a well known trick e-tailers do.

So really I'm looking for any other caveats I can use to bolster my consumers rights/SoGA, I plan to send a email to the retailer and ask for mediation and state the facts, and get a suitable outcome, is there anything anyone could suggest? I appreciate any advice.

Many Thanks

the_lunatic_is_in_my_head · 18 July at 10:09AM

Sorry if I missed it in your post OP, but when was this originally delivered to you (trying to get an idea of how long you've had the card)?

Otter23 · 18 July at 10:30AM

I've had the GPU for 23 months, Warranty is 3 years. So I know the onus is on me to prove the fault was there originally, which by the numerous threads on google searches, shows that this fan issue is a common fault, which I hadn't noted until I put the stock cooler back on.

DullGreyGuy · 18 July at 10:33AM

They say they've been using the same cooling solution for the card for 23 months and the cooling solution was bought in the same order as the card so premsumably about that sort of duration.

To the OP - its a little unclear as to if you are attempting to exercise your statutory rights against the retailer or if the retailer offered a warranty in addition to the manufacturer's warranty (or if the manufacturers warranty is managed by the retailer (as some are))?

Under your statutory rights the retailer has the option to repair, replace or refund, if they opt for the last option then they are entitled to reduce the refund to reflect the use you've already had from the item. You yourself state that you expect a 3 year life from such a card and you appear to have had it circa 2 years which could be used to imply that a 64% discount isnt unreasonable especially if they allow you to keep the card (given its functional just fans on).

If you are trying to claim under the warranty then you need to see what the terms and conditions of the warranty are as to what you are entitled as these are in addition to your statutory rights and can say whatever.

Given you state you still have some of the manufacturers warranty left then that clearly gives you another potential avenue if you arent happy with the retailers offers.

the_lunatic_is_in_my_head · 18 July at 10:44AM

Otter23 said:

I've had the GPU for 23 months, Warranty is 3 years. So I know the onus is on me to prove the fault was there originally, which by the numerous threads on google searches, shows that this fan issue is a common fault, which I hadn't noted until I put the stock cooler back on.

I'm not up on tech at all, as above under consumer rights they can make a deduction for use, if you know how long this card should typically last you can draw your own figures and counter-offer theirs, nothing wrong with negotiation.

Guidance notes on the CRA say if the item was new then a replacement should also be new:

https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2015/15/notes/division/3/1/3/4/5

A replacement would usually need to be identical, that is of the same make and model and if the goods were bought new then the replacement would need to be new.

You can't force a repair/replacement, instead you move on to final reject/price reduction, but based on the guidance notes I don't think you are obligated to accept a refurbished model although none of us here can really say how a court would view the matter.

You say you would expect them to fix the card and resell it as refurbished, are you able to fix card? If so you can claim the cost of doing so as a price reduction (if they refuse to repair/replace) and keep the card, this way you aren't out any money and know the history of the card.

Alderbank · 18 July at 10:47AM

I find your account confusing.

You bought a high-end graphics card 2 years ago.
You carried out some modifications to the cooling system.
You have recently re-installed the stock cooling fans and discovered that they are faulty.
You asked the trader for an exchange or refund.
They have asked you to return the items so that they or the manufacturer can determine whether the faults are intrinsic and were present when you bought it or whether they were caused by the modifications you carried out.
You feel the trader is being malicious.
The card has a 3 year manufacturer's warranty.

Is my summary correct?

What is the card?
Who did you buy it from?
How did you pay for it?
Did you return it or have you still got it?

RefluentBeans · 18 July at 11:41AM

So - just so I'm clear on the pricing - the retailer sold you the card for £1400 - and then now is saying that they are offering a refund for £509 (36%) after 23 months. I'm guessing they took what remained of the warranty and offered you that. You've now found that similar cards (albeit not actively searchable) are retailing for £650. I don't think that markup is unfair - they will probably refurbish these cards which has some cost to it.

It sounds like they offered you a refurbished card but you're skeptical because of the owner's use beforehand (and risking presumably heavy usage by miners who have sold their cards now that cryptocurrency is no longer as profitable).

What would you like their solution to be? It sounds like you are asking for a like-new product or a repair on the card. Neither of which they are entitled to give you. You certainly won't get a new card after 23 months, and there is nothing forcing them to offer you a repair. They can give you a repair, replacement (of equivalent quality) or refund (which they can adjust depending on usage).

The retailer can also refer to the manufacturer to get their professional opinion on whether this is intrinsic or user error - this is not malicious.

It sounds like they know this fault exists (like you stated), they offered an immediate solution as the likelihood is the manufacturer would take it back as it is a known issue, and gave you what they consider a fair price (or a refurb model). You've rejected that, and so now they are going along with the warranty procedure that may afford you a repair, or refund (which may be higher, lower, or equivalent to the current offer).

The things I would ask, to better understand your position:
1. Is this offer of money via the warranty or consumer rights from the retailer
2. 3 years is likely not the expected lifetime of the product - so you may be able to get a better refund amount if they can acknowledge that.
3. See if the refurb comes with any warranty, and what that warranty is - if it comes with a warranty of 13 months (to match your current warranty) then I don't really see why you wouldn't go for that. If its shorter, try and get the warranty to match your current warranty.

Otter23 · 18 July at 11:47AM

DullGreyGuy said:

They say they've been using the same cooling solution for the card for 23 months and the cooling solution was bought in the same order as the card so premsumably about that sort of duration.

To the OP - its a little unclear as to if you are attempting to exercise your statutory rights against the retailer or if the retailer offered a warranty in addition to the manufacturer's warranty (or if the manufacturers warranty is managed by the retailer (as some are))?

Under your statutory rights the retailer has the option to repair, replace or refund, if they opt for the last option then they are entitled to reduce the refund to reflect the use you've already had from the item. You yourself state that you expect a 3 year life from such a card and you appear to have had it circa 2 years which could be used to imply that a 64% discount isnt unreasonable especially if they allow you to keep the card (given its functional just fans on).

If you are trying to claim under the warranty then you need to see what the terms and conditions of the warranty are as to what you are entitled as these are in addition to your statutory rights and can say whatever.

Given you state you still have some of the manufacturers warranty left then that clearly gives you another potential avenue if you arent happy with the retailers offers.

I'll reply per paragraph with a number to clear it up.

1) Yes same timeframe for cooler/GPU

2) This is the part im a little unsure of, from my understanding, I can invoke the SoGAct regarding warranty and a "reasonable" expectation from a product.

3) Yeah I understand that I cannot expect £1400 back, I would expect a minimum of 3 years, as the Manufacturer guarantees the item for that duration, GPUs can last a very long time, +10 years even, just depends on "silicon lottery" and a bit of user care can help that. And the slashed partial refund is if the retailer take my card off me and give me cash value, which as I put in the OP, doesn't even allow me to get a 2nd hand model that was used in bitcoin mining operation off ebay. With the refund offered, it wouldn't get me anywhere close to what I have currently if I buy new. It's a total undervaluation from what should be the top price bracket. I've had a motherboard beforehand that I had to RMA and a different etailer gave me back 85% of my money and that was 3 years into a 5 year warranty. So i'm looking at this as the retailer profiteering off my loss.

4) The website has the most convoluted warranty I have ever seen, they have warranties for pre-built computers clearly listed, but trying to find a standard product warranty description is a joke. Again I may be wrong, but doesn't the retailer have a duty to uphold the warranty themselves? And the retailer in question had what they defined as "R48" which was RMAs resolved in 48 hours. I have still not even got a RMA number.

5) Yeah I have opened dialogue with the manufacturer and awaiting a reply, but I'm still peeved that the retailer effectively pulled the offer of the awful refund until they send the card off because I question why they wanted to swap cards/cheapskate partial refund.

Clarification)
When i first spoke to the retailer, I enquired about the warranty I had, I assumed it was two years, I was told "2 or 3, I can find that out" by the retailer rep. Took 5 days to find out it is 3 years. The maker of my GPU decided to withdraw from the GPU market (they don't make new ones, only stock left over for RMAs) so i explained this over the phone, the rep knew of this issue and said "we still send them to Germany to repair them at manufacturers site, turnaround time is 2/4 weeks". I explained that I would prefer if the retailer could find a reasonable solution that avoids having to send my product across Europe. The rep said he would ask the manager for a solution.

Day 2 I was emailed about the refurbished card "If you come through us we'd be able to offer a refurbished unit of the same card as a replacement, which is the same as what *manufacturer* will offer, but it'll be quicker for us to just do it."
I asked about the condition of the card, if it was a display item and unused, or as I said originally, repaired from damaged? No reply to this. Warranty given as a gesture? No reply. I asked if a exchange could be arranged, for a equivelent performing card. No reply. I asked about the discrepancy on the website with a £800 refurb being cut down by £350 from a different refubished cooler (identical GPU) at £1,150.

Day 4 I was told that the price has no bearing on the condition of the card, which was later contradicted by a different rep over the phone. I spoke later with the original rep about the issue and was told "now that you told us you opened the card, we now need to sent it to the manufacturer". I stated that this was clearly stated earlier and in my invoice that shows I bought a 3rd party cooler, and I am covered in warranty to open the device and swap the cooler. Stonewalled.

Today) Just now been emailed by Retailer that they advised I go throught he Manufacturer and get a RMA number , provide to Retailer and they will ship it to Germany. So yeah they washed their hands of all responsibility.

Otter23 · 18 July at 12:03PM

Alderbank said:

I find your account confusing.
You bought a high-end graphics card 2 years ago.
You carried out some modifications to the cooling system.
You have recently re-installed the stock cooling fans and discovered that they are faulty.
You asked the trader for an exchange or refund.
They have asked you to return the items so that they or the manufacturer can determine whether the faults are intrinsic and were present when you bought it or whether they were caused by the modifications you carried out.
You feel the trader is being malicious.
The card has a 3 year manufacturer's warranty.
Is my summary correct?
What is the card?
Who did you buy it from?
How did you pay for it?
Did you return it or have you still got it?

1) Yes 23 months ago
2) Yes a cooler swap, which Manufacturer covers (swapping thermal pads/paste/etc, all covered
3) Yes, put back in original config because I wanted to Air cool my PC, not watercool it anymore
4) I asked for exchange or refund, after they stated "we don't have anymore of those particular cards. They also don't do in house repairs.
5) They originally wanted me to do a swap for a refurbished/used price deducted card they were selling for £800, but because I asked why they were only offereing me £510 out of the £1,400 I paid for a item that should last at the very least 3 years, they decided to say, "ok go through manufacturer" And yes that would make sense if that was the original plan they had, but they only reverted because I said £510 for a card that should last years and years has got a well known fault is dispicable, when they are selling the exact same card for £800, they should not be undercutting my card that much, just so they can resell it.
6) Absolutely, they have lied or been evasive on answers: What Warranty I have. What condition the refurb they offered was in. Why they will not offer a fair exchange for anothe brand. Why they went from "let's swap cards," to "We can't take your card because you opened it" after I highlighted the PRefund.
7) That's Correct.

3080ti EVGA FTW3
Scan.co.uk
Finance credit.
I still have it in my machine, working as I type this, with the fans %100.

Otter23 · 18 July at 12:19PM

RefluentBeans said:

So - just so I'm clear on the pricing - the retailer sold you the card for £1400 - and then now is saying that they are offering a refund for £509 (36%) after 23 months. I'm guessing they took what remained of the warranty and offered you that. You've now found that similar cards (albeit not actively searchable) are retailing for £650. I don't think that markup is unfair - they will probably refurbish these cards which has some cost to it.

It sounds like they offered you a refurbished card but you're skeptical because of the owner's use beforehand (and risking presumably heavy usage by miners who have sold their cards now that cryptocurrency is no longer as profitable).

What would you like their solution to be? It sounds like you are asking for a like-new product or a repair on the card. Neither of which they are entitled to give you. You certainly won't get a new card after 23 months, and there is nothing forcing them to offer you a repair. They can give you a repair, replacement (of equivalent quality) or refund (which they can adjust depending on usage).

The retailer can also refer to the manufacturer to get their professional opinion on whether this is intrinsic or user error - this is not malicious.

It sounds like they know this fault exists (like you stated), they offered an immediate solution as the likelihood is the manufacturer would take it back as it is a known issue, and gave you what they consider a fair price (or a refurb model). You've rejected that, and so now they are going along with the warranty procedure that may afford you a repair, or refund (which may be higher, lower, or equivalent to the current offer).

The things I would ask, to better understand your position:
1. Is this offer of money via the warranty or consumer rights from the retailer
2. 3 years is likely not the expected lifetime of the product - so you may be able to get a better refund amount if they can acknowledge that.
3. See if the refurb comes with any warranty, and what that warranty is - if it comes with a warranty of 13 months (to match your current warranty) then I don't really see why you wouldn't go for that. If its shorter, try and get the warranty to match your current warranty.

So they're not even matching the market value on ebay by this estimation then? Scan do not do repairs, hence why I said it's a undersell on the partial refund. It's age old trick, they take your product, send it to manufacturer to repair/replace, offer you a paltry sum to buy you out, resell the card they get back from manufacturer for profit. Hence why when I asked for a fairer sum, they reverted to, go deal with EVGA, not out problem.

Yes I am skeptical because they can't tell me a single thing about this cards history, like it could be a brand new but open box, which I would take, but when the price is £350 less on the store than another refurbished card, that gives credence it's a heavily used product, and GPUs don't exactly have MOT history on them. one of the reps even said "oh the price might be for the condition of the card".

I would want a fair price, I don't expect to go out and buy the latest top end model, I would even swallow having to pay a tad to get a equivelent product, or be offered a swap like my 3080ti > 4070 (which is still below the performance of my card). Instead I get offered a huge cut to the value which falls below 2nd hand market on used products.

Yeah they refer to the manufacturer after I pointed out the ridiculous offer.

1)They said the offer was based on "time used/Warranty remaining"
2)I know for sure a high end GPU like this should last far longer than 3 years, that's just what EVGA supply. I have a 2070 in my partners PC that is almost 6 years old and that is fine.
3) It was with the remaining warranty, but again, when Scan are trying to sell this card for cheaper than the lesser XC3 model which is listed as £1150, that tells me I might get something that has been abused.

DullGreyGuy · 18 July at 12:24PM

Otter23 said:
2) This is the part im a little unsure of, from my understanding, I can invoke the SoGAct regarding warranty and a "reasonable" expectation from a product.

SoGA only applies to small businesses now, for consumers it was replaced with the CRA in 2015. You are however mixing things up... statutory rights and warranties are independent in the UK. The former are defined by law (CRA mainly these days) and cannot be changed by the merchant. The later are defined by the T&Cs of the warranty and can be much more generous than your statutory rights or less... in many cases they are simply different and one can be better in some circumstances and the other in other circs.

Under statutory rights, the item is over 6 months old and therefore the duty on you is to prove the item is faulty/not satisfactory quality rather than this being either user damage and/or reasonable wear & tear. Some would consider having to send an item off at no/minimal cost preferable to having to find an appropriately qualified engineer to inspect the item and write a report on it.

The CRA gives the retailer 3 statutory options (repair, replace (with identical replacement) or refund), as two grown ups you are free to come to any other agreement that you are both happy with, like switching it for a different item, but they cannot force you to accept it if you dont want to.

64% cut from Partial Refund while in Warranty

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