British Gas - Broken meter issue, saga since 1989!

[Deleted User]

CSI_Yorkshire said:

Dolor said:

CSI_Yorkshire said:

TamVilla80 said:

Thanks all 
I think my main issue is that I understand that legally they are responsible to supply a working meter, and that both the gas and electric meters have a 'certification expiry' date (which I presume they are both over as they haven't been replaced since 1989 at the very least) 
Would I be right to pursue this, and if they say they can't change them (we did empty the cupboard and remove the worktop last time, so they could get to it, think he just couldn't be bothered as it's a trickier job!) is it their responsibility to fit new ones where they can access them? 

No, it isn't.

What could be the appropriate process for them to follow if you pursue it (and I'm not saying they would, but it logically tracks) is that they disconnect you, point you towards the "new connections" procedure of your local network operator, and wait for you to pay to have a new meter installed in the 'right' location.

All these steps have provision in the Electricity Act.

The "legally they are responsible to supply a working meter" actually says (paraphrased) "If a customer has a supplier from a licensed supplier, it shall be through and measured by an appropriate meter.  This meter should be at a location specified by the supplier.  The supplier can require a new meter or change in position of a meter at any time to fulfil the regulations, the electricity act or for 'other reasonable circumstances'.  If a customer refuses have a new meter or meter put at the position the supplier wishes, the supplier can refuse to supply or can discontinue the present supply"

It even says (and I'd forgotten that it did until today) that the customer is responsible, at their own expense, to keep the meter in good order and accurately measuring.

Are you sure? How is the customer going to know if a meter has drifted slightly outside of its certified accuracy limit? 

If what you are saying is correct then why have suppliers got Guaranteed Service Standards?

‘You should contact your supplier to investigate the problem with your meter. They can arrange for it to be tested. From the day you tell your supplier about the problem, they have 5 working days to do all of the following:

• investigate the problem
• take action to help them fix the problem. 
• offer to confirm everything in writing, including what they’ve done to investigate the problem, what they’ll do to fix it and how long it will take

If your supplier doesn’t do all of these things within 5 working days they have to pay you £30 compensation. They must pay you this compensation within 10 working days. If they don't pay you on time they have to pay you an extra £30 for the delay.’

Source: Citizens Advice

In sum, I think that you have got this wrong.

Poor wording on my part.

For slightly more clarity - It's that the customer shall keep a meter in in good order to be able to measure accurately - and the wording is horrific (as it is in most of the sections) because it relates to meters supplied by the customer (with section 2 referring to meters supplied by the supplier) and doesn't really mention meters supplied by a different supplier but whose ownership has changed.  That particular loophole hasn't been tested yet, and is just assumed that the "installed by" passes across with the ownership..

EA (1989) Sch7 Sec10

Really it was just posted to point out that people's understanding of what is 'legally required' and what the weird and wonderful legal documents we deal with in this area actually say can be very different sometimes.  Had no relevance to the remainder of my comment.

How many domestic customers actually own their own meter: I suspect very few. A number of industrial energy customers do fit their own meters; hence, this obligation. Rather than para-phrase it is often better to quote the actual obligation then readers can make their own interpretation of what the Regulations say.

10(1)A customer of an [F26authorised supplier] shall at all times, at his own expense, keep any meter [F27provided by] him in proper order for correctly registering the quantity of electricity supplied to him; and in default of his doing so the supplier may discontinue the supply of electricity through that meter.

(2)An [F26authorised supplier] shall at all times, at his own expense, keep any meter [F28provided] by him to any customer in proper order for correctly registering the quantity of electricity supplied and, in the case of pre-payment meters, for operating properly on receipt of the necessary payment.

In sum, if my supplier agrees to allow me to fit my own meter then, if it breaks, I pay to have the meter replaced. If the supplier supplies a meter and it breaks, the obligation is on the supplier to fix it. The Regulations to me are anything but ambiguous.

CSI_Yorkshire

[Deleted User] said:

CSI_Yorkshire said:

Dolor said:

CSI_Yorkshire said:

TamVilla80 said:

Thanks all 
I think my main issue is that I understand that legally they are responsible to supply a working meter, and that both the gas and electric meters have a 'certification expiry' date (which I presume they are both over as they haven't been replaced since 1989 at the very least) 
Would I be right to pursue this, and if they say they can't change them (we did empty the cupboard and remove the worktop last time, so they could get to it, think he just couldn't be bothered as it's a trickier job!) is it their responsibility to fit new ones where they can access them? 

No, it isn't.

What could be the appropriate process for them to follow if you pursue it (and I'm not saying they would, but it logically tracks) is that they disconnect you, point you towards the "new connections" procedure of your local network operator, and wait for you to pay to have a new meter installed in the 'right' location.

All these steps have provision in the Electricity Act.

The "legally they are responsible to supply a working meter" actually says (paraphrased) "If a customer has a supplier from a licensed supplier, it shall be through and measured by an appropriate meter.  This meter should be at a location specified by the supplier.  The supplier can require a new meter or change in position of a meter at any time to fulfil the regulations, the electricity act or for 'other reasonable circumstances'.  If a customer refuses have a new meter or meter put at the position the supplier wishes, the supplier can refuse to supply or can discontinue the present supply"

It even says (and I'd forgotten that it did until today) that the customer is responsible, at their own expense, to keep the meter in good order and accurately measuring.

Are you sure? How is the customer going to know if a meter has drifted slightly outside of its certified accuracy limit? 

If what you are saying is correct then why have suppliers got Guaranteed Service Standards?

‘You should contact your supplier to investigate the problem with your meter. They can arrange for it to be tested. From the day you tell your supplier about the problem, they have 5 working days to do all of the following:

• investigate the problem
• take action to help them fix the problem. 
• offer to confirm everything in writing, including what they’ve done to investigate the problem, what they’ll do to fix it and how long it will take

If your supplier doesn’t do all of these things within 5 working days they have to pay you £30 compensation. They must pay you this compensation within 10 working days. If they don't pay you on time they have to pay you an extra £30 for the delay.’

Source: Citizens Advice

In sum, I think that you have got this wrong.

Poor wording on my part.

For slightly more clarity - It's that the customer shall keep a meter in in good order to be able to measure accurately - and the wording is horrific (as it is in most of the sections) because it relates to meters supplied by the customer (with section 2 referring to meters supplied by the supplier) and doesn't really mention meters supplied by a different supplier but whose ownership has changed.  That particular loophole hasn't been tested yet, and is just assumed that the "installed by" passes across with the ownership..

EA (1989) Sch7 Sec10

Really it was just posted to point out that people's understanding of what is 'legally required' and what the weird and wonderful legal documents we deal with in this area actually say can be very different sometimes.  Had no relevance to the remainder of my comment.

How many domestic customers actually own their own meter: I suspect very few. A number of industrial energy customers do fit their own meters; hence, this obligation. Rather than para-phrase it is often better to quote the actual obligation then readers can make their own interpretation of what the Regulations say.

10(1)A customer of an [F26authorised supplier] shall at all times, at his own expense, keep any meter [F27provided by] him in proper order for correctly registering the quantity of electricity supplied to him; and in default of his doing so the supplier may discontinue the supply of electricity through that meter.

(2)An [F26authorised supplier] shall at all times, at his own expense, keep any meter [F28provided] by him to any customer in proper order for correctly registering the quantity of electricity supplied and, in the case of pre-payment meters, for operating properly on receipt of the necessary payment.

In sum, if my supplier agrees to allow me to fit my own meter then, if it breaks, I pay to have the meter replaced. If the supplier supplies a meter and it breaks, the obligation is on the supplier to fix it. The Regulations to me are anything but ambiguous.

I mean, this is off topic and I was only using it as an example of "think someone is legally required" and "actually legally required" can be different, but ok.

Who is responsible for maintaining or fixing a meter fitted by British Gas if the current supplier is E.ON Next?  The EA would say British Gas.  Common knowledge, most of this site, and probably the suppliers themselves would say E.ON Next.

[Deleted User]

Who is responsible for maintaining or fixing a meter fitted by British Gas if the current supplier is E.ON Next?  The EA would say British Gas.  Common knowledge, most of this site, and probably the suppliers themselves would say E.ON Next.

The Switching Process as described by Ofgem:

CSI_Yorkshire

So not the same as the Act then, which used to say "belonging to" but then clarified to say "provided by".  "Provided by" is a factual statement that doesn't change - the meter was never provided by the gaining supplier.  If I build a house and give it to you, you might now be responsible but I still built it.

And, of course, the Act starts that section with "An authorised supplier" - which the MAP is not - so it can't even be the MAP's job funded by the gaining supplier.

Wouldn't the Act take precedence?

As I said - untested and nobody really cares - but if you really think that the Regulations and everything else in this area is "anything but ambiguous" then you've either not read enough or you have a better legal mind than anyone I ever met in the industry.

MeteredOut

<snip>

If what you are saying is correct then why have suppliers got Guaranteed Service Standards?

‘You should contact your supplier to investigate the problem with your meter. They can arrange for it to be tested. From the day you tell your supplier about the problem, they have 5 working days to do all of the following:

• investigate the problem
• take action to help them fix the problem. 
• offer to confirm everything in writing, including what they’ve done to investigate the problem, what they’ll do to fix it and how long it will take

If your supplier doesn’t do all of these things within 5 working days they have to pay you £30 compensation. They must pay you this compensation within 10 working days. If they don't pay you on time they have to pay you an extra £30 for the delay.’

Source: Citizens Advice

<snip>

is this for both Electricity and Gas, as this is not my experience: 

https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/6452074/gas-meter-still-increasing-whilst-gas-isolated-siemens-landis-gyr-e6s

[Deleted User]

MeteredOut said:

<snip>

If what you are saying is correct then why have suppliers got Guaranteed Service Standards?

‘You should contact your supplier to investigate the problem with your meter. They can arrange for it to be tested. From the day you tell your supplier about the problem, they have 5 working days to do all of the following:

• investigate the problem
• take action to help them fix the problem. 
• offer to confirm everything in writing, including what they’ve done to investigate the problem, what they’ll do to fix it and how long it will take

If your supplier doesn’t do all of these things within 5 working days they have to pay you £30 compensation. They must pay you this compensation within 10 working days. If they don't pay you on time they have to pay you an extra £30 for the delay.’

Source: Citizens Advice

<snip>

is this for both Electricity and Gas, as this is not my experience: 

https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/6452074/gas-meter-still-increasing-whilst-gas-isolated-siemens-landis-gyr-e6s

Read Sections 4 and 8. These performance standards are also included in Supply Licences:

https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2015/1544/made

Edit: And on the EDF Website

https://www.edfenergy.com/sites/default/files/r863_guide_to_service_standards_aw1_e5.pdf

SAC2334

Some customers really box in the meters every time they have a new modern kitchen fitted  and they re fitted with no thought as to future  access .
For years I got round this to take a meter reading  with use of an extending mirror to read/inspect the meters with great difficulty .
Absolutely no  chance of any meter fitter could get a spanner on the unions of mostly gas meters or screwdivers on electric meters when they can barely see the meter never mind get a big spanner on the nut s

I  always knew in the end it would be a huge problem just getting at the unions or even worse the gas  regulator and there would be plenty of customers  so entitled in their attitudes that its "not their problem . I had plenty of them moaning about waiting in all day for a meter exchange fitter with magical powers to come and swap out our meters only to walk straight out again .

In many properties meter fitters would turn up and give it a 30 second glance and clear off muttering about utter stupidity of householders who put the beauty of their latest  kitchens with expensive heavy marble/slate worktops  first before access to the most vital piece of equipment in the house next to the consumer box.

In the end its up to the householder to properly give enough access and that would mean the top kitchen worktop removing , along with the taps and draining board , to be removed by a plumber, at their costs.

I was told by meter fitters if they don t allow proper  access by dismantling their new fittings  then they have no alternative but  to cut off supply when the meters reach end of life.