British Gas - Broken meter issue, saga since 1989!

TamVilla80

My Father In Law passed away in January and I'm looking for advice dealing with British Gas.
Whilst sorting through paperwork we found a letter from British Gas saying an appointment had been arranged to fit new smart meters for both gas and electric. We kept the appointment, I waited in, they arrived to take one look at the meters and said 'can't change those'
This is no suprise as this saga dates back to 1989! 
When the in-laws first moved in, the meters are in the corner of the kitchen, right at the back of the cupboards, a complete pita of a place! Over the years countless engineers have said they need moving / replacing and then someone comes back to say they can't do it.
Never bothered my F-I-L but it's really bugging me 😂 (Also, we have an interest that we might buy the house and move in, or at least we want to sell it)
One of the meters is broken, as the dial does not move, so it really does need sorting regardless. The last engineer that I spoke to said really they need moving, which Cadent / National Grid could do, but it would cost us thousands(which we don't have)
Is there any legal onus in place that they should replace the meters (with no or minimum charge) and possibly move them too?
Thanks for reading, any advice appreciated!

[Deleted User]

Is there any legal onus in place that they should replace the meters (with no or minimum charge) and possibly move them too?

I believe that this cost falls to the owner of the property. Vulnerable people might be entitled to help but I doubt if you have inherited a property that you would fall into that category. Clearly, the cost depends on how far you want to move the meters.

https://www.citizensadvice.org.uk/consumer/energy/energy-supply/your-energy-meter/move-your-gas-or-electricity-meter/

jimjames

TamVilla80 said:

One of the meters is broken, as the dial does not move, so it really does need sorting regardless. The last engineer that I spoke to said really they need moving, which Cadent / National Grid could do, but it would cost us thousands(which we don't have)
Is there any legal onus in place that they should replace the meters (with no or minimum charge) and possibly move them too?
Thanks for reading, any advice appreciated!

Surely the cost would come from the estate if it's an empty house that's being sold so you having the money or not shouldn't be an issue

victor2

[Deleted User] said:

Is there any legal onus in place that they should replace the meters (with no or minimum charge) and possibly move them too?

I believe that this cost falls to the owner of the property. Vulnerable people might be entitled to help but I doubt if you have inherited a property that you would fall into that category. Clearly, the cost depends on how far you want to move the meters.

https://www.citizensadvice.org.uk/consumer/energy/energy-supply/your-energy-meter/move-your-gas-or-electricity-meter/

Aren't energy suppliers obliged to fit working meters? If so, and new ones can't be fitted where the existing ones are, whose responsibility is it then?
which meter isn't working? If there is little to no usage now, are BG using pretty meaningless estimates? 
Sorry OP. No answers, just more questions!

CSI_Yorkshire

victor2 said:

[Deleted User] said:

Is there any legal onus in place that they should replace the meters (with no or minimum charge) and possibly move them too?

I believe that this cost falls to the owner of the property. Vulnerable people might be entitled to help but I doubt if you have inherited a property that you would fall into that category. Clearly, the cost depends on how far you want to move the meters.

https://www.citizensadvice.org.uk/consumer/energy/energy-supply/your-energy-meter/move-your-gas-or-electricity-meter/

Aren't energy suppliers obliged to fit working meters?

Yes, but overridden by their requirements to not create unsafe conditions, place their employees/representatives in danger etc..

victor2 said:

[Deleted User] said:

Is there any legal onus in place that they should replace the meters (with no or minimum charge) and possibly move them too?

I believe that this cost falls to the owner of the property. Vulnerable people might be entitled to help but I doubt if you have inherited a property that you would fall into that category. Clearly, the cost depends on how far you want to move the meters.

https://www.citizensadvice.org.uk/consumer/energy/energy-supply/your-energy-meter/move-your-gas-or-electricity-meter/

If so, and new ones can't be fitted where the existing ones are, whose responsibility is it then?

To do the work?  The network operator.

To pay for the work?  The building owner (just like a new connection).

400ixl

Take the cupboards out temporarily so they can have clear access and be changed. Being smart meters it won't matter so much if the are then out of the way as you will have the IHD and automated readings going to the supplier.

imeach

400ixl said:

Take the cupboards out temporarily so they can have clear access and be changed. Being smart meters it won't matter so much if the are then out of the way as you will have the IHD and automated readings going to the supplier.

Apart from if a meter reader turns up to read them

TamVilla80

Thanks all 
I think my main issue is that I understand that legally they are responsible to supply a working meter, and that both the gas and electric meters have a 'certification expiry' date (which I presume they are both over as they haven't been replaced since 1989 at the very least) 
Would I be right to pursue this, and if they say they can't change them (we did empty the cupboard and remove the worktop last time, so they could get to it, think he just couldn't be bothered as it's a trickier job!) is it their responsibility to fit new ones where they can access them? 

CSI_Yorkshire

TamVilla80 said:

Thanks all 
I think my main issue is that I understand that legally they are responsible to supply a working meter, and that both the gas and electric meters have a 'certification expiry' date (which I presume they are both over as they haven't been replaced since 1989 at the very least) 
Would I be right to pursue this, and if they say they can't change them (we did empty the cupboard and remove the worktop last time, so they could get to it, think he just couldn't be bothered as it's a trickier job!) is it their responsibility to fit new ones where they can access them? 

No, it isn't.

What could be the appropriate process for them to follow if you pursue it (and I'm not saying they would, but it logically tracks) is that they disconnect you, point you towards the "new connections" procedure of your local network operator, and wait for you to pay to have a new meter installed in the 'right' location.

All these steps have provision in the Electricity Act.

The "legally they are responsible to supply a working meter" actually says (paraphrased) "If a customer has a supplier from a licensed supplier, it shall be through and measured by an appropriate meter.  This meter should be at a location specified by the supplier.  The supplier can require a new meter or change in position of a meter at any time to fulfil the regulations, the electricity act or for 'other reasonable circumstances'.  If a customer refuses have a new meter or meter put at the position the supplier wishes, the supplier can refuse to supply or can discontinue the present supply"

It even says (and I'd forgotten that it did until today) that the customer is responsible, at their own expense, to keep the meter in good order and accurately measuring.

[Deleted User]

CSI_Yorkshire said:

TamVilla80 said:

Thanks all 
I think my main issue is that I understand that legally they are responsible to supply a working meter, and that both the gas and electric meters have a 'certification expiry' date (which I presume they are both over as they haven't been replaced since 1989 at the very least) 
Would I be right to pursue this, and if they say they can't change them (we did empty the cupboard and remove the worktop last time, so they could get to it, think he just couldn't be bothered as it's a trickier job!) is it their responsibility to fit new ones where they can access them? 

No, it isn't.

What could be the appropriate process for them to follow if you pursue it (and I'm not saying they would, but it logically tracks) is that they disconnect you, point you towards the "new connections" procedure of your local network operator, and wait for you to pay to have a new meter installed in the 'right' location.

All these steps have provision in the Electricity Act.

The "legally they are responsible to supply a working meter" actually says (paraphrased) "If a customer has a supplier from a licensed supplier, it shall be through and measured by an appropriate meter.  This meter should be at a location specified by the supplier.  The supplier can require a new meter or change in position of a meter at any time to fulfil the regulations, the electricity act or for 'other reasonable circumstances'.  If a customer refuses have a new meter or meter put at the position the supplier wishes, the supplier can refuse to supply or can discontinue the present supply"

It even says (and I'd forgotten that it did until today) that the customer is responsible, at their own expense, to keep the meter in good order and accurately measuring.

Are you sure? How is the customer going to know if a meter has drifted slightly outside of its certified accuracy limit? 

If what you are saying is correct then why have suppliers got Guaranteed Service Standards?

‘You should contact your supplier to investigate the problem with your meter. They can arrange for it to be tested. From the day you tell your supplier about the problem, they have 5 working days to do all of the following:

• investigate the problem
• take action to help them fix the problem. 
• offer to confirm everything in writing, including what they’ve done to investigate the problem, what they’ll do to fix it and how long it will take

If your supplier doesn’t do all of these things within 5 working days they have to pay you £30 compensation. They must pay you this compensation within 10 working days. If they don't pay you on time they have to pay you an extra £30 for the delay.’

Source: Citizens Advice

In sum, I think that you have got this wrong.

CSI_Yorkshire

Dolor said:

CSI_Yorkshire said:

TamVilla80 said:

Thanks all 
I think my main issue is that I understand that legally they are responsible to supply a working meter, and that both the gas and electric meters have a 'certification expiry' date (which I presume they are both over as they haven't been replaced since 1989 at the very least) 
Would I be right to pursue this, and if they say they can't change them (we did empty the cupboard and remove the worktop last time, so they could get to it, think he just couldn't be bothered as it's a trickier job!) is it their responsibility to fit new ones where they can access them? 

No, it isn't.

What could be the appropriate process for them to follow if you pursue it (and I'm not saying they would, but it logically tracks) is that they disconnect you, point you towards the "new connections" procedure of your local network operator, and wait for you to pay to have a new meter installed in the 'right' location.

All these steps have provision in the Electricity Act.

The "legally they are responsible to supply a working meter" actually says (paraphrased) "If a customer has a supplier from a licensed supplier, it shall be through and measured by an appropriate meter.  This meter should be at a location specified by the supplier.  The supplier can require a new meter or change in position of a meter at any time to fulfil the regulations, the electricity act or for 'other reasonable circumstances'.  If a customer refuses have a new meter or meter put at the position the supplier wishes, the supplier can refuse to supply or can discontinue the present supply"

It even says (and I'd forgotten that it did until today) that the customer is responsible, at their own expense, to keep the meter in good order and accurately measuring.

Are you sure? How is the customer going to know if a meter has drifted slightly outside of its certified accuracy limit? 

If what you are saying is correct then why have suppliers got Guaranteed Service Standards?

‘You should contact your supplier to investigate the problem with your meter. They can arrange for it to be tested. From the day you tell your supplier about the problem, they have 5 working days to do all of the following:

• investigate the problem
• take action to help them fix the problem. 
• offer to confirm everything in writing, including what they’ve done to investigate the problem, what they’ll do to fix it and how long it will take

If your supplier doesn’t do all of these things within 5 working days they have to pay you £30 compensation. They must pay you this compensation within 10 working days. If they don't pay you on time they have to pay you an extra £30 for the delay.’

Source: Citizens Advice

In sum, I think that you have got this wrong.

Poor wording on my part.

For slightly more clarity - It's that the customer shall keep a meter in in good order to be able to measure accurately - and the wording is horrific (as it is in most of the sections) because it relates to meters supplied by the customer (with section 2 referring to meters supplied by the supplier) and doesn't really mention meters supplied by a different supplier but whose ownership has changed.  That particular loophole hasn't been tested yet, and is just assumed that the "installed by" passes across with the ownership..

EA (1989) Sch7 Sec10

Really it was just posted to point out that people's understanding of what is 'legally required' and what the weird and wonderful legal documents we deal with in this area actually say can be very different sometimes.  Had no relevance to the remainder of my comment.