Fogstar Home Batteries (Domestic <30kWh ... etc)

zeupater

Hi

Talking to some friends at the weekend & it was mentioned that they had a number of quotes for a home battery system to add to an existing PV setup (~5.5 kW.p) , with the main contender currently being a Fogstar rack mounted ~30kWh unit, which I mentioned was probably far too much storage (probably >double) for their likely needs considering the array size .... I was asked what I thought of the units compared to others he mentioned (a number of usual suspects!) ...

I've had a quick look and it looks like a modular rack mounted system (similar to Pylontech in style) which seems have decent specs (including LCD individual unit monitoring) & incredible wholesale pricing (which supports what was mentioned related to the quote), but not too much detail available on independent reviews on quality etc ....

Any feedback related to direct experience of use available on the forum would be appreciated & passed on ... additionally, this thread would also be useful for further discussion regarding this option ...

Cheers

Z ...

Ectophile

For what it's worth, the British Standards Institution has a draft document out

Draft PAS 63100 Electrical installations – Protection against fire of battery energy storage systems for use in dwellings – Specification

which recommends no more than 40kWh within a home (80kWh if it's in an outbuilding or attached fire-rated garage), and no more than 20kWh of batteries in any one box.

So that suggests that 30kWh of batteries should be split across two boxes, for safety.

https://standardsdevelopment.bsigroup.com/projects/2022-00181 You have to register (for free) if you want to read it.

zeupater

Hi

Interesting, not read in detail yet (although I have come across some articles linked to what I believe to be 'project personnel'), but it looks to encompass all secondary (rechargeable) batteries .... however, do you know whether the proposal's reference to 'boxes' relates to module enclosures or racks and whether the proposal has any basis related to chemistry of the battery itself as that would be pretty relevant, probably more-so than an arbitrary 'limit' to unit capacity ... in my humble opinion it's akin to fire safety conditions limiting storage conditions/capacity of various fluids without considering the flammability of what's being stored ... an analogy would be to encompass various liquids containing hydrogen due to it's volatility and propensity to rapidly combust (explode!) without considering that it's not only a component of hydrocarbons, but hydro (water) itself, and as we know, various chemistries based around lithium have a considerable range on the combustion likelihood spectrum, and that lithium itself isn't the only proposed basis of secondary battery option currently in development ....

Don't want to end up with something akin to vested interest backed regulations that mandated the fitting of catalytic converters just as clean burn engine technologies were ready to launch ... again .... and, of course, the last thing we want is someone telling us that we can't have an EV (a box) with >20kWh of batteries in our garage, although I can think of some vested interest groups that would latch onto any such 'standards' and associated legislation to drive their preferences and/or agenda ... 

Anyway, boxes aside, back to the Fogstar batteries ... anyone know anything about them?

Z

zeupater

Hi - Update

Well, had a boozy evening with the couple interested in batteries over the weekend & they have taken note of the previous conversation regarding a 30kWh system likely being far too large for their (current!) needs ... a couple of quick basic calculations & it looks like a 10-12kWh system would easily suffice so they'll set their target at above 10kWh, but 15kWh max which should save them a considerable sum over what a number of salesmen were trying to push ....

I think they'll still look at the Fogstar equipment option and request an updated quote bases on 3x5kWh racked modules as opposed to the large system previously quoted, and have taken on board that, although looking for feedback on this forum, there has been none (to date), so they'll also try to find a Pylontech installer in their locality as there seems to be plenty of users providing feedback ....

HTH - Z

zeupater

Oh, forgot to mention ...

They brought along some info on the quotes received .... ... looks like there are some pretty greedy setups operating in the sector as well as some potentially shady operators trying on things such as replacing consumer units and 'upgrading' the earths .... for an additional, wait for it ...... £3.5k !!!!!

Anyway, the quotes seemed to range from £wholesaler list+ <£1k through to well over 2x equipment £wholesaler list, and that's before whatever discounts are offered/negotiated with the installers .. looks like groundhog day & the wild west conditions of the early PV days are being exploited by some stetson wearers, many of which have simply blown the dust off 10 year old brims and re-entered the market ...

HTH - Z

michaels

A bigger battery might make sense if it was paired with a TOU tariff and a heat pump?

Chris_Type_R

Wouldn't this single 15.2kWh Fogstar battery make sense - https://www.fogstar.co.uk/collections/lifepo4/products/seplos-mason-280l-and-x16-grade-b-envision-305ah-battery-bundle (there are Eve bundles too).

I'm thinking of one myself if I can sell off my 5.3kWj recently acquired Sunsynk battery. It would suit me in terms of the foot print and space. 

ETA: Ignoring the obvious requirement to build the behemoth. 

zeupater

michaels said:

A bigger battery might make sense if it was paired with a TOU tariff and a heat pump?

Hi

Went through that with them .... not interested at the moment & just want to improve self consumption on their existing PV.

The HP possibility was likely the reasoning behind the 30kWh battery as quoted, however as they only replaced their GCH boiler within the last couple of years it's unlikely that they'll do so again soon .... 

As global battery manufacturing capacity is rapidly growing, prices aren't likely to remain at current levels for long ... I'm expecting (/hoping) the target of <£150/kWh to encourage a consumer based home battery mass market to develop will be achieved in the not too distant future, so all that's needed is prices to roughly halve from current levels, which could probably be achieved already in a vertically integrated manufacturing set-up considering current cell production/supply costs are supposedly in the £60-£90/kWh range ... this leaves open the possibility of either expanding installed capacity or even swapping out the complete battery pack at a future date for effectively no cost or even a saving when the heat source is eventually addressed ...

HTH - Z

zeupater

Chris_Type_R said:

Wouldn't this single 15.2kWh Fogstar battery make sense - https://www.fogstar.co.uk/collections/lifepo4/products/seplos-mason-280l-and-x16-grade-b-envision-305ah-battery-bundle (there are Eve bundles too).

I'm thinking of one myself if I can sell off my 5.3kWj recently acquired Sunsynk battery. It would suit me in terms of the foot print and space. 

ETA: Ignoring the obvious requirement to build the behemoth. 

Hi

They're not DIY enthusiasts & are looking at a fully supplied & fitted solution with some form of guarantee (for what it's worth!!) ...

Just looked at the 15.2  offering linked .... may be DIY & B graded performance batteries, but it definitely shows that the possibility of sub £150/kWh can't be too far away ....

Z

Martyn1981

zeupater said:

michaels said:

A bigger battery might make sense if it was paired with a TOU tariff and a heat pump?

Hi

Went through that with them .... not interested at the moment & just want to improve self consumption on their existing PV.

The HP possibility was likely the reasoning behind the 30kWh battery as quoted, however as they only replaced their GCH boiler within the last couple of years it's unlikely that they'll do so again soon .... 

As global battery manufacturing capacity is rapidly growing, prices aren't likely to remain at current levels for long ... I'm expecting (/hoping) the target of <£150/kWh to encourage a consumer based home battery mass market to develop will be achieved in the not too distant future, so all that's needed is prices to roughly halve from current levels, which could probably be achieved already in a vertically integrated manufacturing set-up considering current cell production/supply costs are supposedly in the £60-£90/kWh range ... this leaves open the possibility of either expanding installed capacity or even swapping out the complete battery pack at a future date for effectively no cost or even a saving when the heat source is eventually addressed ...

HTH - Z

Hiya Z, hope I don't mislead, but there are lots (and lots) of rumours growing that China now has an excess of battery production, and is growing production faster than demand. So your suggestions (and long hoped for pricing) might be around the corner (2024/25?) .... or not. But thought I'd mention it.

zeupater

Martyn1981 said:

zeupater said:

michaels said:

A bigger battery might make sense if it was paired with a TOU tariff and a heat pump?

Hi

Went through that with them .... not interested at the moment & just want to improve self consumption on their existing PV.

The HP possibility was likely the reasoning behind the 30kWh battery as quoted, however as they only replaced their GCH boiler within the last couple of years it's unlikely that they'll do so again soon .... 

As global battery manufacturing capacity is rapidly growing, prices aren't likely to remain at current levels for long ... I'm expecting (/hoping) the target of <£150/kWh to encourage a consumer based home battery mass market to develop will be achieved in the not too distant future, so all that's needed is prices to roughly halve from current levels, which could probably be achieved already in a vertically integrated manufacturing set-up considering current cell production/supply costs are supposedly in the £60-£90/kWh range ... this leaves open the possibility of either expanding installed capacity or even swapping out the complete battery pack at a future date for effectively no cost or even a saving when the heat source is eventually addressed ...

HTH - Z

Hiya Z, hope I don't mislead, but there are lots (and lots) of rumours growing that China now has an excess of battery production, and is growing production faster than demand. So your suggestions (and long hoped for pricing) might be around the corner (2024/25?) .... or not. But thought I'd mention it.

Hi

I've seen a number of mentions of that too .... seems like some of the major players have built future capacity up front and are currently planning to run one shift until automotive build capacity & other demand catches up .... the supply chain bottleneck now seems to have moved to processing/refining the raw materials to a usable quality and I guess that once that's addressed then we'll effectively see some real competitive pressure on prices, which hasn't been the case to date ... but like the rapid unplanned expansion of Chinese PV panel manufacturing a decade ago we'll likely see a similar pattern of consolidation & failure of manufacturers who haven't fully grasped cost and/or quality control as well as others have! 

This may also be one of the major issues behind legacy automotive OEMs limiting EV build ... they're aware of the pending market changes and are simply waiting for downward pressure on battery costs to allow them to make profitable vehicles as opposed to shipping units regardless of the effect on the bottom line ...

HTH - Z