Victorian terraced houses and removed internal walls

droogle

I realised after looking at a lot of typical small terraced houses that the internal layouts are probably more often modified than not. It seems to be very common to increase the sense of space in lounge and dining room by creating a through lounge, but I also see a lot of houses where there isn't a hallway, rather the stairs are part of what used to be the dining room, and where the lounge isn't separated from a hallway. I'd imagine a lot of this work was done a very long time ago, and it's quite likely not to be any record of it. I'm guessing that surveys will flag this sort of stuff up and say to check for regs.

I suppose the previous owners could have had a structural engineer check it over, and that there might be records of this.

Am I wrong to assume that the lack of separate hallway indicates a modification? Perhaps there were styles of Victorian terraced house which were more 'open plan'?

Section62

droogle said:

Am I wrong to assume that the lack of separate hallway indicates a modification? Perhaps there were styles of Victorian terraced house which were more 'open plan'?

There were many different layouts of Victorian terrace - a common variant was a 'front' room which was entered directly from the street and a 'back' room which was behind it, linking through to the kitchen.  These often have the stairs aligned parallel to the street separating the 'front' and 'back' rooms - the advantage being the top of the stairs ends up somewhere in the middle of the first floor which allows the first floor rooms to be as large as possible in a small total plan area.

It sounds like what you've been seeing is a variant of that layout?

droogle

Section62 said:

droogle said:

Am I wrong to assume that the lack of separate hallway indicates a modification? Perhaps there were styles of Victorian terraced house which were more 'open plan'?

There were many different layouts of Victorian terrace - a common variant was a 'front' room which was entered directly from the street and a 'back' room which was behind it, linking through to the kitchen.  These often have the stairs aligned parallel to the street separating the 'front' and 'back' rooms - the advantage being the top of the stairs ends up somewhere in the middle of the first floor which allows the first floor rooms to be as large as possible in a small total plan area.

It sounds like what you've been seeing is a variant of that layout?

No, not come across that one. I've seen a lot where the front room isn't separated from a hallway (effectively you walk straight into the front room), and also a lot where the rear or dining room isn't divided from the stairs by a wall. I don't think I've seen many where both the lounge and dining room have no hall separation... though I've definitely seen one. 

elsien

droogle said:

I realised after looking at a lot of typical small terraced houses that the internal layouts are probably more often modified than not. It seems to be very common to increase the sense of space in lounge and dining room by creating a through lounge, but I also see a lot of houses where there isn't a hallway, rather the stairs are part of what used to be the dining room, and where the lounge isn't separated from a hallway. I'd imagine a lot of this work was done a very long time ago, and it's quite likely not to be any record of it. I'm guessing that surveys will flag this sort of stuff up and say to check for regs.

I suppose the previous owners could have had a structural engineer check it over, and that there might be records of this.

Am I wrong to assume that the lack of separate hallway indicates a modification? Perhaps there were styles of Victorian terraced house which were more 'open plan'?

My terraced house doesn’t have a hallway and never has.
Front door straight into the front room. Which leads into the backroom, then through into what would have originally been the scullery, but is now the kitchen.
Stairs going off from the kitchen. 

droogle

elsien said:

My terraced house doesn’t have a hallway and never has.
Front door straight into the front room. Which leads into the backroom, then through into what would have originally been the scullery, but is now the kitchen.
Stairs going off from the kitchen. 

How do you know what's original/whether it has been modified?

AlexMac

droogle said:

...It seems to be very common to ... creating a through lounge, but I also see a lot of houses where there isn't a hallway, rather the stairs are part of what used to be the dining room, and where the lounge isn't separated from a hallway. , ahad a structural engineer check it over, and that there might be records of this... Am I wrong to assume that the lack of separate hallway indicates a modification? Perhaps there were styles of Victorian terraced house which were more 'open plan'?

I think that's an accurate assumption, based on all four Victorian terraced houses I've owned (as well as lots  more owned by friends and neighbours) which had exactly that original configuration;
- front door, leading to a hallway with stairs ahead of you to the upper (bed) rooms, 
- separate front room off to the side via an internal door, rear room behind that, also off the hallway via a door,
and in some cases with the two knocked through to form a single longer room, and in most cases also with;
- a scullery or third ground-floor room in an original single storey  rear extension (none of my properties had the now almost obligatory modern rear full-width extensions with large sliding or bi-fold windows!).  

I guess you could annoy the neighbours by asking to see their interiors, as most houses in London terraces were identical or mirror images? 

As regards structural integrity; 

droogle said:

" ... I'm guessing that surveys will flag this sort of stuff up and say to check for regs.  I suppose the previous owners could have had a structural engineer check it over, and that there might be records of this... I'd imagine a lot of this work was done a very long time ago nd it's quite likely not to be any record of it. I'm guessing that surveys will flag this sort of stuff up and say to check for regs..."

I wouldn't take anything for granted, although you'd hope that if works had been done some time ago, any settlement would, by now, be obvious?  Two of mine already had through lounges, when I bought in 1975 and 1997 respectively'  In one case, although the original floorboards ran front to back, underneath where the dividing wall had been, they were bowed down a little in the centre line. Presumably the weight even that (probably non-structural, timber stud-work) wall had imposed a bit of down ward pressure so the subfloor joists had bowed a little. But Victorian houses are amazingly "forgiving"?

Or house never fell down, through, even when all the lath and horsehair plaster ceilings collapsed after a frost burst a pipe in the loft, when we were away for a week one Christmas!  Unlike the house of a neighbour of the house a few doors away from the early 19th century terraced gaff my wife lived in in the early 1970s.  A couple of cowboy builders were taking out that one's internal downstairs walls, and there was a rumble as the whole interior 1st floor and roof imploded!

But even in the unlikely event that you can find an old survey, it won't protect you.

When we bought our current house (1980's not Victorian), we saw that a wall had been removed between the lounge and diner (we saw the original developer's plans, which featured the original divider).  The last owner HAD commissioned a survey which gave it the all-clear ten years prior.  That engineer was still practicing locally, so I gave him a bell.  He made the point that in the event of a collapse, only the owner who had comissioned the survey could claim on his professional indemnity; so we'd need a new one if we wanted to cover our 4r53s.  But as builder Brother in Law observed, there was no sign of cracking or settlement, so we just took the chance and din't bother.  Still sound as a bell, 12 years further on!  

So it depends on your attitude to risk?

droogle

AlexMac said:

Or house never fell down, through, even when all the lath and horsehair plaster ceilings collapsed after a frost burst a pipe in the loft, when we were away for a week one Christmas!  Unlike the house of a neighbour of the house a few doors away from the early 19th century terraced gaff my wife lived in in the early 1970s.  A couple of cowboy builders were taking out that one's internal downstairs walls, and there was a rumble as the whole interior 1st floor and roof imploded!

Holy crap!

elsien

droogle said:

elsien said:

My terraced house doesn’t have a hallway and never has.
Front door straight into the front room. Which leads into the backroom, then through into what would have originally been the scullery, but is now the kitchen.
Stairs going off from the kitchen. 

How do you know what's original/whether it has been modified?

Because it’s a low rent area where anyone who can afford to carry out that kind of work tends to up sticks and move elsewhere.
And my neighbours’s houses (all built together) are all the same, but on the one side of the family has been living there so long they can remember the original range being in the back room. 

The modifications that have been done are to turn the outside toilets and coal hole  into the downstairs bathroom. 

And my neighbours house that was originally council, the council straightened the stairs into the back room, so that a stair lift could be fitted.
But no hall in any of them.

droogle

elsien said:

And my neighbours’s houses (all built together) are all the same, but on the one side of the family has been living there so long they can remember the original range being in the back room. 

The modifications that have been done are to turn the outside toilets and coal hole  into the downstairs bathroom. 

And my neighbours house that was originally council, the council straightened the stairs into the back room, so that a stair lift could be fitted.
But no hall in any of them.

I have wondered if a hall-less design was common for terraces under a certain width, a more compressed design, so to speak.

FreeBear

elsien said:

droogle said:

I realised after looking at a lot of typical small terraced houses that the internal layouts are probably more often modified than not. It seems to be very common to increase the sense of space in lounge and dining room by creating a through lounge, but I also see a lot of houses where there isn't a hallway, rather the stairs are part of what used to be the dining room, and where the lounge isn't separated from a hallway. I'd imagine a lot of this work was done a very long time ago, and it's quite likely not to be any record of it. I'm guessing that surveys will flag this sort of stuff up and say to check for regs.

I suppose the previous owners could have had a structural engineer check it over, and that there might be records of this.

Am I wrong to assume that the lack of separate hallway indicates a modification? Perhaps there were styles of Victorian terraced house which were more 'open plan'?

My terraced house doesn’t have a hallway and never has.
Front door straight into the front room. Which leads into the backroom, then through into what would have originally been the scullery, but is now the kitchen.
Stairs going off from the kitchen. 

Niece has bought herself a small Victorian terrace. Front door opens straight in to a reception room. Pass through that room in to the rear reception room, and the staircase is at the side going (steeply) up the party wall. Kitchen & ground floor bathroom is a recent extension to the rear.

To call it a spacious property would be a severe overstatement and fall in to the realm of false advertising.

Noneforit999

My wife inherited her grans house which we now live in.

Its mid 60s and her grandad was a builder so did any work himself, absolutely no paperwork of anything other than the extension which he needed PP for but I have zero building regs stuff for:

1. Centre wall taken down between lounge and dining room, its a supporting wall and there is what looks like an RSJ there boxed in but I have no idea if its the correct spec etc.
2. Chimney stack removed in the lounge but left upstairs and in the loft. There is no RSJ or gallows brackets so I assume its structurally sound because its tied into the party wall and the neighbour still has theirs down to the ground.
3. Loft part converted with a staircase. Its definitely not building regs but there is a floor up there and was supporting a fair amount of weight when we moved in, there was storage units up, a heavy desk etc. Can only assume because the joists are sitting on a central supporting wall, its fine. No cracks or sags in any ceilings. 

We didn't need a survey, she inherited the house so there was no purchase as such. We could have had one but the above three items were done 20+ years ago and we used the theory that her Grandad likely had structural checks done at the time, he wouldn't have done anything which was too risky for the house he was living in and there are no signs of issues after all this time.

Old houses have work done and you often find little paperwork or evidence its been done to regulations.