Advise following on from level 3 survey

Adam1303

Hello,

I've just had a level 3 survey completed on a property I'm purchasing, which unfortunately has seemed to leave more questions than answers and I'm hoping someone would be kind enough to shed some further clarity on this for me. 

To my understanding, a RICS level 3 survey should provide the surveyors' insight into the structural integrity of the property, albeit largely from an observational standpoint, as opposed to a physical (intrusive inspection) standpoint.
My issues lie with the fact that the survey is almost entirely superficial, with an example (and one of my prime concerns) being that there are references to the interior walls being a 3 (requiring immediate/urgent attention) although providing almost no insight into why.

The report states that one of the interior walls has a crack in it, with some cowboy plastering skills performed (bumpy and rough), stating that this is cosmetic and requires some attention but isn't immediately concerning - Later reporting that I need to get someone in immediately to review this crack to ensure that it doesn't go through the entire wall.
This will is a neighboring wall, shared between the property I'm purchasing and the neighbour - The crack is quite literally from the corner of the wall, about 1m across it. It doesn't start in any weak points of the property's structures, such as above windows or doors. There are no other visible cracks in the property.
The report references damp in the property, which has now been vacant for months with all windows shut throughout this time. 
This later goes in to discuss that it's sometimes difficult to identify original layouts of the property and I should pay for someone to come out to conduct an assessment on the property - without ever addressing why there's a concern behind this.
There are no reports of any suspected load-bearing walls having been removed, nor any references to any suspected alterations to the property.

In totality, there are references to dampness, a crack in the wall that was plastered over (albeit shoddily done), and a request for me to pay for someone to come out and assess if any load-bearing walls have been removed. 

In complete honesty, I didn't get any information that I didn't already know from my viewing of the property and I'm really questioning why I just spent £500 on a survey to begin with which quite literally only tells me to pay someone out and do the inspection. I'm quite shocked, disappointed, and confused by all of this. 
It feels almost as though I paid for a surveyor to tell me what anyone could already see, while referencing me towards contractors who I would have approached should there have been any issues to begin with.

One issue that has arose, which I will give credit for, is that the surveyor believes the porch to have been an addition to the property and having already contact my local authority and their archives, they have no records of any planning permission requests ever having been received. 
This isn't too surprising to me, however, given they also don't have any records of the properties initial construction, nor original layouts. I'm quite literally unable to find anyone, anywhere, who has the properties original building plans, or layout. 

The property was constructed in 1965, so it was before the digital era, but I've even been informed there are no records of any kind available in paper or digital format. 

I apologise if this post is all over the place, but it's a true reflection of where my head is at with all of this right now. 

I truly appreciate any and all replies in advance, and will attentively listen to any and all advice provided.

In the event you get this far but don't reply - I thank you for your time in reading. 

- Adam.

propertyrental

Phone the surveyor and ask him to fill in the gaps or explain anything your don't understand.

tooldle

Does the vendor have original drawings / plan bundled with the deeds? 

thearchitect

Comments from someone in a profession not noted as typically jumping to the defence of surveyors:

- Even a full survey is non-disruptive and undertaken from ground (or floor) level using binoculars, etc. as required.   Unfortuantely any more than that with ladders, roof access, and so on leads to a significantly higher cost.  What the surveyor is trained to do is identify the tell-tell signs of potentially wider, less visible problems.

- If they are in any doubt, they will flag something up as Level 3 and recommend a check, if only for the sake of their PII.

- A building or valuation surveyor is not qualified to talk on structural engineering issues hence if there is any question about whether movement is ongoing or not then they have no real option other than to direct you to get a structural report done.  

- It can be hard to differentiate between penetrating dampness and condensation in an unoccupied, unheated building in certain circumstances.  There is a good BRE guide on this (GR5 Revised) which you can get for £12 or thereby online, and may be worth a read.

- A word with the surveyor can go a long way to clarifying why points were raised.  

Adam1303

thearchitect said:

Comments from someone in a profession not noted as typically jumping to the defence of surveyors:

- Even a full survey is non-disruptive and undertaken from ground (or floor) level using binoculars, etc. as required.   Unfortuantely any more than that with ladders, roof access, and so on leads to a significantly higher cost.  What the surveyor is trained to do is identify the tell-tell signs of potentially wider, less visible problems.

- If they are in any doubt, they will flag something up as Level 3 and recommend a check, if only for the sake of their PII.

- A building or valuation surveyor is not qualified to talk on structural engineering issues hence if there is any question about whether movement is ongoing or not then they have no real option other than to direct you to get a structural report done.  

- It can be hard to differentiate between penetrating dampness and condensation in an unoccupied, unheated building in certain circumstances.  There is a good BRE guide on this (GR5 Revised) which you can get for £12 or thereby online, and may be worth a read.

- A word with the surveyor can go a long way to clarifying why points were raised.  

I appreciate the reply. 

I'm aware that the survey is face-value without any intrusive methods of dedection, or evidencing. My issue was with the baseline complimentary wording of things, which later gets a level 3 warning. 

To emphasise this, I've spent all weekend reading over the report and fact checking information.  
The porch has evidence of being constructed over 15 years ago, making it exempt from planning related actions. 
Enforcement, perhaps, but building and planning exempt. 
I could apply for an LDC at this point, which was never mentioned. 
In addition to this, I've since taken measurements of the porch since having sourced information that a porch of 3m2 or less doesn't require planning permission - this porch is just under 3m2  yet has been given a 3 due to reports its retrofitted and needs planning permission which isn't the case. 

The issue with the report is that it was ambiguous,  and doesn't clearly indicate what issue(s) the surveyor was highlighting. 
I'm also aware that structural related issues are beyond their scope and legally, they may not be able to comment on it - but to include references towards wall removals, without sourcing suspicions of removed walls, or suspicions of altered layout, is a bit excessive? 
The tonality of the report sounded more like avoiding oversharing on the off chance of being incorrect, and include any eventuality while emphasising it to the extent of mitigating liability of oversight accusations. 

I'm intending on discussing this further first thing tomorrow, because while I have my own measurements, I'd like to check if he has his own measurements of the porch and verify that the porch doesn't need planning permission given being under 3m2. 

thearchitect

The RICS survey pro-forma is relatively restrictive in contrast to a "full" condition report of a building, reflecting the lower price point, so best to 'phone him (or her) and ask why they're suspisious about the structural issues.

FreeBear

Adam1303 said: I'm intending on discussing this further first thing tomorrow, because while I have my own measurements, I'd like to check if he has his own measurements of the porch and verify that the porch doesn't need planning permission given being under 3m2. 

If the property is listed, in a conservation area, or subject to an Article 4 Directive (removal of permitted development rights), then planning could well have been needed for the porch. In the case of a listed property, enforcement action could be taken even 15 years after the event if the relevant permissions had not been sought.

Noneforit999

So the crack is on a party wall? Is it a straight crack or does it look like a staircase?

If its been plastered over, how does the surveyor know the crack goes right through the wall? Plaster can crack fairly easily so its not uncommon to see hairline cracks in plaster skim, we have several of them in our 60s house but its just the plaster rather than the brickwork itself. 

Adam1303

FreeBear said:

Adam1303 said: I'm intending on discussing this further first thing tomorrow, because while I have my own measurements, I'd like to check if he has his own measurements of the porch and verify that the porch doesn't need planning permission given being under 3m2. 

If the property is listed, in a conservation area, or subject to an Article 4 Directive (removal of permitted development rights), then planning could well have been needed for the porch. In the case of a listed property, enforcement action could be taken even 15 years after the event if the relevant permissions had not been sought.

Hi, 
None of the above are applicable to the property.  I've checked everything, and it seems he was either unaware, or failed to factor this in to the report. 
I'll be making contact in the next hour to review this. 

Noneforit999 said:

So the crack is on a party wall? Is it a straight crack or does it look like a staircase?

If its been plastered over, how does the surveyor know the crack goes right through the wall? Plaster can crack fairly easily so its not uncommon to see hairline cracks in plaster skim, we have several of them in our 60s house but its just the plaster rather than the brickwork itself. 

This is my issue, the plaster work which has gone over it is protruding to the extent it looks purely cosmetic. 
The house has had ventilation slots in the brick work sealed with silicon, as well as an impermeable felt in the attic and no ventilation tiles on the roof. 
The cracks to me looked cosmetic and likely a result of fluctuating temperatures and humidity as a result of the above. 
With it being a neighboring wall as well, I'm further inclined to believe it's attributed to temperature fluctuations and humidity, as well as the property being 45 years old. 

It seems to me that the comment on cracking is purely from a risk mitigation standpoint. If it was to be running through the brickwork, it would be appearing through the neighbours walls, too. 

nicmyles

As others have said, your best route is just to phone the surveyor. They will often be much more informative and frank verbally than in writing.

You sound generally pretty knowledgeable, so it's not necessarily surprising that the survey isn't adding much to your understanding of the property. If the survey hasn't highlighted anything you hadn't seen, or has suggested you investigate things that you don't think a big deal, than that's a good sign, isn't it?

re: the porch. They have suggested you investigate whether it was permitted or not and you have done some investigation meaning you're comfortable with it, by the sounds of things. A survey of this type will never tell you anything definitive from that point of view, just highlight areas you may wish to reassure yourself on.

Adam1303

Just to provide an update -

I spoke to the surveyor via phone call today and he was significantly more informative and explained everything thoroughly. Unfortunately, today was the first opportunity I had to make contact as the report was provided late on Friday following close of business hours. 

His concerns were as follows -

Porch -
He stated he was unaware if it was a conservation area, or if the title deeds prohibited development without permission. Has since acknowledged that no planning permission is required given neither are applicable. 
- One wall has a moisture reading of 800 making it completely saturated and probable of no DPC
- He's concerned with cracking on the joint between the porch and property, that it wasn't secured properly and is separating.
- He's reporting he believes the water ingress in the ceiling is from separation from the property creating gaps for rain runoff to travel down the wall of the property, and into the roof of the porch.


Internal/external walls -
- Damp in walls, with average readings in mid-high 200's
- This is primarily downstairs, leaving him to believe failing DPC without any certificates of DPC renewal.
- External vents sealed, moisture in walls, and no history of cavity wall tie replacement or maintenance - Property was built between 67-75.
- Signs of early lintel failure in some windows, with obvious lintel corrosion above the kitchen door

Unfortunately, this wasn't very well documented within the report. There were references to dampness, but no direct ties to causes, as was the same with a lot of other information provided during the phone call.

I think it's re-negotiation time because while I like the property, it's getting to the point of a probability some, or all of the above will completely fail in the not-so-distant future.