AO.com returns/refunds and my rights

mynamenicola0101

Hello everyone,

I’m hoping somebody will be able to clear up exactly how far my consumer rights stretch in the circumstance I’m in.

I bought a Samsung dishwasher from AO.com and despite trying several different cycles / loading patterns etc the performance is just not what I’d expect from a £750 appliance (wouldn’t usually spend that much). We end up hand washing nearly all the cutlery and about 25% of the load after each wash - a real drop compared to our previous much cheaper Beko.

Called AO to discuss a replacement just 10 days after original delivery and they said they were entitled to keep 15% of the cost due to usage. We’ve been through all sorts with Samsung and even had an engineer out to confirm there is no manufacture fault, so there is nothing to be fixed.

Maybe I’m being too simple, but I would say the poor performance is covered under not being fit for purpose (although I can understand this is somewhat a grey area) but also am confused at how it would be possible to find this out without opening and using the appliance - which immediately reduces its value by 15%.

Would anybody know what leverage I might have in terms of consumer rights, or will it end up being at retailer discretion? In which case I’m probably lumped with a poorly performing dishwasher?

I’m case useful I paid with PayPal credit so have looked into section 75 but am I right in thinking that would only really cover items not arriving/as described or with tangible faults?

Thank you very much in advance 

the_lunatic_is_in_my_head

Hello OP

If you were changing your mind (which is cancelling your contract) a deduction for diminished value due to handling which goes beyond what is necessary to establish the nature, characteristics and functioning of the goods is permitted.

That is exampled in the regs as the type handling that might reasonably be allowed in a shop. 

I'm not sure how they can assess the 15% without examining the goods but probably not the point to focus on  

Regardless of a manufacturing fault, the goods also need to be as described, can you post the model number you purchased OP? 

tightauldgit

My understanding was that in the first 30 days if you reject the item as not of sufficient quality they have to refund you in full. 

It seems that they are thinking of this as a change of mind return but if you point out to them you are rejecting under the CRA then you shouldn't have anything deducted. 

the_lunatic_is_in_my_head

tightauldgit said:

My understanding was that in the first 30 days if you reject the item as not of sufficient quality they have to refund you in full. 

Rejecting under the 30 day short term right places the burden of proof on the consumer and the Samsung engineer claiming no fault will likely mean OP has to prove there's a problem with the dishwasher unless OP can show their experience with the machine doesn't match the description of the product (i.e any claims on how well it does your dishes). 

tightauldgit

No fault doesn't mean it is of sufficient quality though. If you're having to hand wash stuff after its been through a wash cycle - then provided you can show you're using it properly then a few before and after photos would surely show it's not doing the job. S75 would potentially be another route to pursue if AO say no - it's not quite clear from the OP if AO have admitted the machine isn't up to snuff or are just allowing a change of mind.

From a consumer rights point of view, for the OP, there's no difference between it being faulty or not fit for purpose or not of sufficient quality.

This is based on the assumption of course that the OP is being factual in their post and not exaggerating how poor the performance is. 

mynamenicola0101

Thank you for your insights.

The model number is Samsung DW60A8050FB

In general yes AO seem to be dealing with it as a change of mind unless the Samsung engineer could point to a particular manufacture fault (which they could not) even if I would request a like for like replacement or a different model. I genuinely can understand that there has to be limits placed on things, but a 15% deduction for 10 days seems fairly unreasonable. Surely to find the poor performance it has to be used and tested a few times - even so we could agree it wasn’t a problem we were causing.

I don’t have any before pics of usage but hopefully attached are a few examples of the general after shots (appreciate this still doesn’t exactly count as ‘proof’). I’m a bit of a male stereotype in having a proper loading ‘regime’ and have even been following as closely as possible the loading diagrams from the manual to try and ensure the most effective cycle possible.

the_lunatic_is_in_my_head

tightauldgit said:

No fault doesn't mean it is of sufficient quality though. If you're having to hand wash stuff after its been through a wash cycle - then provided you can show you're using it properly then a few before and after photos would surely show it's not doing the job. S75 would potentially be another route to pursue if AO say no - it's not quite clear from the OP if AO have admitted the machine isn't up to snuff or are just allowing a change of mind.

From a consumer rights point of view, for the OP, there's no difference between it being faulty or not fit for purpose or not of sufficient quality.

This is based on the assumption of course that the OP is being factual in their post and not exaggerating how poor the performance is. 

Fit for purpose applies if before the contract is made the consumer makes known to the trader (expressly or by implication) any particular purpose for which the consumer is contracting for the goods. 

Obviously it has to wash the dishes as that's implied but to what degree is subjective.

Satisfactory quality on the other hand does include fitness for all the purposes for which goods of that kind are usually supplied but again it's subjective, a dishwasher can't clean everything.

The word "faulty" doesn't really mean anything  

mynamenicola0101 said:

Looks pretty bad OP, the Samsung website doesn't really mention anything about how clean the dishes will be.

The AO website says:

And with powerful jets, the intensive cycle quickly gets rid of any evidence of meat pie mishaps and crust catastrophes, removing burnt-on food with ease.

Either way I wouldn't expect crumbs on a knife after going through a dishwasher.

I would Google "CEO email" and search that site for AO, use the email contact there

Send photos, highlight the description on their website and advise them that as the goods are not as described and not fit for all the purposes for which dishwashers are usually supplied you require a remedy from them directly (highlighting you are not going to contact Samsung) and if they are unable to repair or replace the machine you'll be exercising the final right to reject for a full (as less than 6 months) refund. 

It might help to grab before shots, including how it's loaded as well as after so they can't claim you are overloading, etc. 

If they still refuse you can send a letter before action (templates on Google), after this you have to consider either small claims or if applicable a S75 claim. 

From what's been posted on here a S75 claim often comes with the request of a report, the credit supplier is equally liable which means you should ask them for a repair or replacement and if they refuse exercise the final right to reject.

Demanding a refund as you are within 30 days does require proof from your side.

If they insist on a report you need to point them towards

https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2015/15/section/19

(14)For the purposes of subsections (3)(b) and (c) and (4), goods which do not conform to the contract at any time within the period of six months beginning with the day on which the goods were delivered to the consumer must be taken not to have conformed to it on that day.

If you face an impasse it's the same as above letter before action, followed by small claims, although the bank is regulated so going through their complaints procedure and then the ombudsman is best practice before small claims which should be a last resort only.

I doubt either AO or a bank want to go to small claims over a dishwasher and hopefully one will see sense without too much work on your part. 

Hopefully AO will buckle but pop back if you need more advice  

OP I forgot to ask what did the engineer say? Did they see the photos (or dishes) and make any comment? 

sheramber

https://www.samsung.com/latin_en/support/home-appliances/what-should-i-do-if-the-dishwasher-does-not-clean-well/#:~:text=If the filter is clogged,filter will contaminate to dishes.&text=If the spring on the,or dispenser door is damaged.&text=Use the right type of detergent and the right amount.

mynamenicola0101

Thank you so much, that’s given some really useful next steps. I’ll head back over when/if we get any resolution from AO.

The engineer saw the dirty dishes photographed and agreed that although dishwasher’s never get everything 100% clean 100% of the time (with overloading being the usual culprit) he wouldn’t expect that outcome. He said that within 28 days they should offer a refund/replacement (then we went through the whole story  ) and checked the usual mechanical things - water pressure, heat, arms spinning etc.l which were all fine.

He then spent the next 15 minutes berating Samsung dishwashers, saying they were the appliance he works on most and the build is not as good as other Samsung items so they’ve usually given up long before the 2 or 5 year warranty period. It was a Samsung partner company (which I won’t name, obviously) 

mynamenicola0101

Thank you Sheramber for the link.
I didn’t mention in my first post that I’ve been through the whole troubleshoot section of the manual and also spent an hour on the phone with Samsung help centre (at the request of AO). 

There doesn’t appear to be any mechanical issue - just a drastic drop off in performance compared to our old Beko

powerful_Rogue

They are truly shocking photos. I paid £287 for a dishwasher off Amazon including fitting that is often overloaded and 98% of the time, everything comes out gleaming.

Certainly appears to be some kind of fault, at cutlery shouldn't come out like that - Unless you've left them sitting in the heat for a week and the food is glued on. Some great advice above and nothing I can really add. Keep us updated.