Worcester Bosch Guarantees - Worthless ?

ComicGeek

HUMBUG said:

Here is the reply from WB  (they sent me some technical documents which I will scan and add into a future post)

The boiler is installed in a  'dining room/passageway' and because we have doors at each end (which can be closed but in reality are left open all the time), they have assumed it will affect the free flow of air into the intake and affect boiler combustion. So that is why they raised an 'AT RISK'  warning.

So I would check your own installations to see if they comply otherwise you might end up with a deactivated guarantee.


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Thank you for your enquiry on behalf of your father.

The terms of the boiler guarantee stipulate that the boiler must be installed to manufacturers instructions to be valid. Any issued highlighted by an attending Gas Safe engineer that potentially pose a safety risk are required to be highlighted using the Gas Industry Unsafe Situations procedure (GIUSP) one of the categories being At Risk. Further information can be found on the Gas Safe website.

With regards the specific attended job the At Risk notice has been issued based on the electrical isolation which we cannot see any pictures but has to adhere to current wiring regulations for fixed appliances to avoid the risk of electric shock, there would also appear to a mention of no bonding which comes under the same category.

If the flue has been deemed at risk due to being enclosed then it would be due to the lack of free flow of air to the air intake which may affect boiler combustion. We cannot see the complete area but would appear to come under the category for installation of a covered passageway.

We have enclosed Technical bulletins that cover both of these issues.

We would recommend if the installer is in disagreement with the installation issues that they provide details as to why.

Regards,

Technical Support

Worcester, Bosch Group

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And WB are absolutely correct to do this. Your installer bodged it back in 2019, and that is the real issue. The only solution at that time may have been to relocate the boiler to a more appropriate location, where the flue could have been installed in a safe way and to meet the manufacturer's requirements - but doing that install in 2019 is just ludicrous. 

I would definitely be getting another gas safe engineer around to review the installation and confirm what would need to be corrected.

The electrical isolation is not really about protecting the home owner, it's about protecting the people working on the appliance. They have to make sure it's safe for their employees/contractors to work on, and are well within their rights to refuse to work on a system that cannot be confirmed as being safe.

Simonon77

Have you checked what their guarantee actually covers? Quite often it isn't actually repairing the whole boiler, it can be labour only and you have to pay for the parts ( which they charge a huge mark up on ) so can end up cheaper getting someone else to do it anyway.

Your dad may be better off not worrying about it and just getting it serviced every year by a qualified independent 

jefaz07

HUMBUG said:

jefaz07 said:

HUMBUG said:

jefaz07 said:

Mains supply to the boiler must be through a fused double pole isolator situated next to the appliance. The isolator must have a contact separation of 3mm minimum in all poles.

This is an extract from a WB manual. The above is not a plug in a flex…their manual says ‘you must’…you haven’t! So they can cancel warranty as it’s not fitted to MI’s

As for the flue, without seeing it I’m guessing but may be in different pressure zones. 

Many thanks but why is it our fault when we used their recommended engineers? The heating engineer company recommended a WB boiler and they were one of their listed installers who will have to service the boiler every year for the next 10 yrs to keep the guarantee valid . For the last 3 years they have serviced the boiler and not said anything about the install being a threat to life and property. 

Not your fault but the WB engineer is correct, and he is the last one there. Anyone can service your boiler too, not a WB accredited installer..which doesn’t mean much I’m afraid. I’m accredited to install a few brands, and honestly, doesn’t mean a lot. Anyone can go to a days course but their workmanship poor. 

As for the flue, it’s in 2 different pressure zones, that’s why, quite correctly, it has been classified as AR

Many thanks but I still don't understand.  The flue is going outside so we have the pressure inside the boiler pushing combustion products through the flue , while on the outside we have atmospheric pressure which I assume is less than inside the boiler. So there must be at least 2 pressure zones for the combustion gases to move (ie. from high to low pressure).

What am I missing?

You’re missing quite a bit, but a bit too much for me to explain on here I'm afraid. But 2 pressure zones is not allowed. What you’re referring to is your boiler being negative pressure. Most are as they have zero governors. 

HUMBUG

jefaz07 said:

HUMBUG said:

jefaz07 said:

HUMBUG said:

jefaz07 said:

Mains supply to the boiler must be through a fused double pole isolator situated next to the appliance. The isolator must have a contact separation of 3mm minimum in all poles.

This is an extract from a WB manual. The above is not a plug in a flex…their manual says ‘you must’…you haven’t! So they can cancel warranty as it’s not fitted to MI’s

As for the flue, without seeing it I’m guessing but may be in different pressure zones. 

Many thanks but why is it our fault when we used their recommended engineers? The heating engineer company recommended a WB boiler and they were one of their listed installers who will have to service the boiler every year for the next 10 yrs to keep the guarantee valid . For the last 3 years they have serviced the boiler and not said anything about the install being a threat to life and property. 

Not your fault but the WB engineer is correct, and he is the last one there. Anyone can service your boiler too, not a WB accredited installer..which doesn’t mean much I’m afraid. I’m accredited to install a few brands, and honestly, doesn’t mean a lot. Anyone can go to a days course but their workmanship poor. 

As for the flue, it’s in 2 different pressure zones, that’s why, quite correctly, it has been classified as AR

Many thanks but I still don't understand.  The flue is going outside so we have the pressure inside the boiler pushing combustion products through the flue , while on the outside we have atmospheric pressure which I assume is less than inside the boiler. So there must be at least 2 pressure zones for the combustion gases to move (ie. from high to low pressure).

What am I missing?

You’re missing quite a bit, but a bit too much for me to explain on here I'm afraid. But 2 pressure zones is not allowed. What you’re referring to is your boiler being negative pressure. Most are as they have zero governors. 

The flue issue doesn't seem to be about pressure zones but covered in the following technical bulletin:

Technical Bulletin TB 0095 a (2015/10)

The electrical issue is non-compliant with current wiring IET regulations and is covered by technical bulletin:  

TB 0168a  (04/2023)

Another rule is covered in Part B  Electrical Safety in dwellings of Building Regulations.  It covers 'Electrical Isolation' and 'Equipotential Bonding'.  The technical bulletin is :

TB 0023a (2010/05)    

Surprisingly , I have received a reply email from the Managing Director of WB and he has referred the matter to the 'Customer Care'  team (although I don't think they will change the outcome of events).

I have also contacted the head of Gas Safe  Register and asked the question whether any customers of WB who have had their warranties deactivated like ours should report the WB installer to them.

ThisIsWeird

Why not continue the flue as the standard concentric type? Elbow, short vertical section through t'roof (at a jaunty angle), terminal. Jobbie most likely jobbed.

I understand the issue is that the fan-assisted flue should draw in air and expel exhaust gases at the same pressure. Ie, both 'ends' of the flue should be fully outside. In this setup, the inlet in effectively indoors, and can therefore be subjected to all sorts of pressure change. Every time a door slams shut from a through-draught, for example, that would be a significant pressure fluctuation.

grumbler

HUMBUG said:

Here is the reply from WB

there would also appear to a mention of no bonding which comes under the same category.

Is bonding always necessary? I thought it was needed only if supply pipe to the house is metal.

FreeBear

ThisIsWeird said: Why not continue the flue as the standard concentric type? Elbow, short vertical section through t'roof (at a jaunty angle), terminal. Jobbie most likely jobbed.

There is also a requirement for the flue terminal to be at least 300mm from a wall when in the vertical - It isn't clear from the photos if this is achievable without putting another hole in the "roof".

As for getting another Gas Safe engineer in to do a service and overturn the At Risk notice, you may well  struggle to find one prepared to do that.

ThisIsWeird

FreeBear said:

ThisIsWeird said: Why not continue the flue as the standard concentric type? Elbow, short vertical section through t'roof (at a jaunty angle), terminal. Jobbie most likely jobbed.

There is also a requirement for the flue terminal to be at least 300mm from a wall when in the vertical - It isn't clear from the photos if this is achievable without putting another hole in the "roof".

As for getting another Gas Safe engineer in to do a service and overturn the At Risk notice, you may well  struggle to find one prepared to do that.

Is the 'at risk' notice a physical thing applied to the boiler? Or is there a central register of dodgy boilers that GSs have access to?

HUMBUG

ThisIsWeird said:

Why not continue the flue as the standard concentric type? Elbow, short vertical section through t'roof (at a jaunty angle), terminal. Jobbie most likely jobbed.

I understand the issue is that the fan-assisted flue should draw in air and expel exhaust gases at the same pressure. Ie, both 'ends' of the flue should be fully outside. In this setup, the inlet in effectively indoors, and can therefore be subjected to all sorts of pressure change. Every time a door slams shut from a through-draught, for example, that would be a significant pressure fluctuation.

To be honest I've never heard about this but it makes sense. I'll take another photo of the boiler from the inside to show everyone the current set-up. 

In the meantime here is what Gas Safe has emailed me (I am quite deaf so unfortunately I couldn't speak to them direct).

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Thank you for your e-mail regarding your father’s boiler installation.

I’ve tried to call you on the number supplied on this e-mail to discuss the issues raised on the e-mail, the number is ringing out each time with no option to leave a voice message.

If issues have been identified on any gas work carried out within the last 6 years by a Gas Safe Registered business and they are not willing to rectify the issues, providing the business are currently Gas Safe Registered, you can raise a case with ourselves against the business and we will arrange for our local inspector to visit the property to inspect the work.

You can either call us on 0800 408 5500 and select option 4 to raise the case with one of our technical officers or if you can provide the following information by return e-mail, I will raise the case for you.

Information required:

Gas Safe Registration Number of the Installer –

Name of the property owner -

Full address where boiler is installed –

Date of installation -

Day time contact phone number –

 Once we receive all of the above information, we can raise the case and someone from Gas Safe Register will make contact on the phone number provided (during normal working hours) within 10 working days, to arrange an appointment for the inspection.

I hope this is satisfactory in answering your query. If you require further assistance, please do not hesitate to contact us.

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Personally, I think this may work against WB because customers will be reporting their recommended installers who haven't adhered exactly to the installation instructions (that WB are using to deactivate the guarantees).  Those installers might think it's not worth doing work for WB if it means getting a black mark against their Gas Safe registration. 

I will await WB and the installers to hopefully propose a solution but it may end up with us having to report the installer who is a respected company in our area.

 

HUMBUG

grumbler said:

HUMBUG said:

Here is the reply from WB

there would also appear to a mention of no bonding which comes under the same category.

Is bonding always necessary? I thought it was needed only if supply pipe to the house is metal.

I'm not sure what bonding means to be honest as I am ignorant regarding heating systems and electrics.  But we do have a lead water supply pipe at the moment (which will need to be replaced soon). Or are you meaning the gas supply pipe (which is also metal)?