Solar Exporting

CSI_Yorkshire

davieba said:

CSI_Yorkshire said:

davieba said:

I recently had 6.5 kW of panels and a 13 kWh battery installed, and have been looking at the various SEG schemes. I'm a customer of Octopus, with intelligent IO, but was unsure whether Flux might be better. I did look at the Scottish Power SEG at a generous 12p per kWh, but was rather surprised (or should that be not surprised?) to see they've made it almost impossible for those with batteries.

"Battery storage schematic diagram

If you also have a battery storage system, we’ll need an image of the install schematic (or single line diagram) to show that the output from the batteries will not be measured by the export meter. This is due to it being classed as ‘brown energy’, which isn’t eligible for payments in our SEG scheme. The diagram must show where the smart/export meter sits in relation to the renewable installation, battery and grid."

What's wrong with that?

You shouldn't be getting paid SEG if you just take from the grid and store it in your batteries to export later.  You should only be paid SEG for your generation - and batteries don't generate.

Having a diagram, which any competent installer could create in ten minutes, doesn't seem like a big ask.

Batteries also store excess solar generation, that's "what's wrong with that", it's got nothing to do with the "diagram".  

If you meter the generation, then you can account for that.  

QrizB said:

CSI_Yorkshire said:

QrizB said:

CSI_Yorkshire said:

davieba said:

I did look at the Scottish Power SEG at a generous 12p per kWh, but was rather surprised (or should that be not surprised?) to see they've made it almost impossible for those with batteries.

What's wrong with that?

Some other suppliers (including notably Octopus) have tariffs where they will pay for time-shifted brown export. And most battery systems don't have separate export meters for green and brown power (with a hybrid inverter, it would be technically challenging to do so).

SP are, in effect, telling battery owners to go elsewhere. Which is fine as a business decision but might be frustrating for customers.

It would be dead easy to add a meter on the DC connection to the panels.  Not technically challenging at all.

But useless, as you'd be measuring gross generation not net export.

Useless in isolation.  But if you know what other bits of the system are doing at the same time, you can have a damn good guess at net export.

davieba

CSI_Yorkshire said:

davieba said:

CSI_Yorkshire said:

davieba said:

I recently had 6.5 kW of panels and a 13 kWh battery installed, and have been looking at the various SEG schemes. I'm a customer of Octopus, with intelligent IO, but was unsure whether Flux might be better. I did look at the Scottish Power SEG at a generous 12p per kWh, but was rather surprised (or should that be not surprised?) to see they've made it almost impossible for those with batteries.

"Battery storage schematic diagram

If you also have a battery storage system, we’ll need an image of the install schematic (or single line diagram) to show that the output from the batteries will not be measured by the export meter. This is due to it being classed as ‘brown energy’, which isn’t eligible for payments in our SEG scheme. The diagram must show where the smart/export meter sits in relation to the renewable installation, battery and grid."

What's wrong with that?

You shouldn't be getting paid SEG if you just take from the grid and store it in your batteries to export later.  You should only be paid SEG for your generation - and batteries don't generate.

Having a diagram, which any competent installer could create in ten minutes, doesn't seem like a big ask.

Batteries also store excess solar generation, that's "what's wrong with that", it's got nothing to do with the "diagram".  

If you meter the generation, then you can account for that.  

QrizB said:

CSI_Yorkshire said:

QrizB said:

CSI_Yorkshire said:

davieba said:

I did look at the Scottish Power SEG at a generous 12p per kWh, but was rather surprised (or should that be not surprised?) to see they've made it almost impossible for those with batteries.

What's wrong with that?

Some other suppliers (including notably Octopus) have tariffs where they will pay for time-shifted brown export. And most battery systems don't have separate export meters for green and brown power (with a hybrid inverter, it would be technically challenging to do so).

SP are, in effect, telling battery owners to go elsewhere. Which is fine as a business decision but might be frustrating for customers.

It would be dead easy to add a meter on the DC connection to the panels.  Not technically challenging at all.

But useless, as you'd be measuring gross generation not net export.

Useless in isolation.  But if you know what other bits of the system are doing at the same time, you can have a damn good guess at net export.

Just not a realistic scenario at all, SP demand that the batteries do not contribute to the export meter, not that I separately meter the generation and since the inverter controls the export from solar and battery, having a "damn good guess" isn't gonna work with SP's requirements, but thanks for your opinion. 

davieba

[Deleted User] said:

davieba said:

CSI_Yorkshire said:

davieba said:

I recently had 6.5 kW of panels and a 13 kWh battery installed, and have been looking at the various SEG schemes. I'm a customer of Octopus, with intelligent IO, but was unsure whether Flux might be better. I did look at the Scottish Power SEG at a generous 12p per kWh, but was rather surprised (or should that be not surprised?) to see they've made it almost impossible for those with batteries.

"Battery storage schematic diagram

If you also have a battery storage system, we’ll need an image of the install schematic (or single line diagram) to show that the output from the batteries will not be measured by the export meter. This is due to it being classed as ‘brown energy’, which isn’t eligible for payments in our SEG scheme. The diagram must show where the smart/export meter sits in relation to the renewable installation, battery and grid."

What's wrong with that?

You shouldn't be getting paid SEG if you just take from the grid and store it in your batteries to export later.  You should only be paid SEG for your generation - and batteries don't generate.

Having a diagram, which any competent installer could create in ten minutes, doesn't seem like a big ask.

Batteries also store excess solar generation, that's "what's wrong with that", it's got nothing to do with the "diagram".  

Batteries can charge from the Grid. Some batteries can also be manually forced to export to the Grid. SP has decided that it does not want to pay for dirty energy (brown) imported from the Grid which is exported from a battery. I suspect that this is related to its green credentials and REGOs. A wiring diagram alone may not give SP the evidence that it needs.

Yes, I'm well aware of that, however with the push towards a future smart-grid, it seems a tad unrealistic and short-sighted to not consider domestic battery storage as part of the solution. Octopus seems to have figured that out and also promotes it's green credentials

CSI_Yorkshire

davieba said:

[Deleted User] said:

davieba said:

CSI_Yorkshire said:

davieba said:

I recently had 6.5 kW of panels and a 13 kWh battery installed, and have been looking at the various SEG schemes. I'm a customer of Octopus, with intelligent IO, but was unsure whether Flux might be better. I did look at the Scottish Power SEG at a generous 12p per kWh, but was rather surprised (or should that be not surprised?) to see they've made it almost impossible for those with batteries.

"Battery storage schematic diagram

If you also have a battery storage system, we’ll need an image of the install schematic (or single line diagram) to show that the output from the batteries will not be measured by the export meter. This is due to it being classed as ‘brown energy’, which isn’t eligible for payments in our SEG scheme. The diagram must show where the smart/export meter sits in relation to the renewable installation, battery and grid."

What's wrong with that?

You shouldn't be getting paid SEG if you just take from the grid and store it in your batteries to export later.  You should only be paid SEG for your generation - and batteries don't generate.

Having a diagram, which any competent installer could create in ten minutes, doesn't seem like a big ask.

Batteries also store excess solar generation, that's "what's wrong with that", it's got nothing to do with the "diagram".  

Batteries can charge from the Grid. Some batteries can also be manually forced to export to the Grid. SP has decided that it does not want to pay for dirty energy (brown) imported from the Grid which is exported from a battery. I suspect that this is related to its green credentials and REGOs. A wiring diagram alone may not give SP the evidence that it needs.

Yes, I'm well aware of that, however with the push towards a future smart-grid, it seems a tad unrealistic and short-sighted to not consider domestic battery storage as part of the solution. Octopus seems to have figured that out and also promotes it's green credentials

I'd rather see batteries understood properly than trying to lump them in with domestic generation.

They provide a fundamentally different set of services to the system.

I suspect Octopus has "figured out" that it's an easy way to boost their perceived green credentials.  But anyway, we weren't talking about being green, we were talking about how you get more cash.

QrizB

CSI_Yorkshire said:

QrizB said:

CSI_Yorkshire said:

QrizB said:

CSI_Yorkshire said:

davieba said:

I did look at the Scottish Power SEG at a generous 12p per kWh, but was rather surprised (or should that be not surprised?) to see they've made it almost impossible for those with batteries.

What's wrong with that?

Some other suppliers (including notably Octopus) have tariffs where they will pay for time-shifted brown export. And most battery systems don't have separate export meters for green and brown power (with a hybrid inverter, it would be technically challenging to do so).

SP are, in effect, telling battery owners to go elsewhere. Which is fine as a business decision but might be frustrating for customers.

It would be dead easy to add a meter on the DC connection to the panels.  Not technically challenging at all.

But useless, as you'd be measuring gross generation not net export.

Useless in isolation.  But if you know what other bits of the system are doing at the same time, you can have a damn good guess at net export.

The problem is the  master incoming busbar in the consumer unit.

It has three things connected to it:

The grid, via the supply meter, which can supply grid electricity or export from the house.

The hybrid inverter, which can supply solar electricity from the PV system or stored electricity from the battery, or can draw from the busbar to charge the battery from the grid.

House loads, which can only draw power but can do so from either source.

It is almost impossible to say whether any given kWh from the hybrid inverter has come from solar PV or has previously been stored from the grid.

(You could do it imperfectly in software with sensors to ensure that export only occurs when the battery is full, ie. when there is surplus solar. I don't know if that would be acceptable to SP but the wording of their clause suggests not.)

CSI_Yorkshire

QrizB said:

CSI_Yorkshire said:

QrizB said:

CSI_Yorkshire said:

QrizB said:

CSI_Yorkshire said:

davieba said:

I did look at the Scottish Power SEG at a generous 12p per kWh, but was rather surprised (or should that be not surprised?) to see they've made it almost impossible for those with batteries.

What's wrong with that?

Some other suppliers (including notably Octopus) have tariffs where they will pay for time-shifted brown export. And most battery systems don't have separate export meters for green and brown power (with a hybrid inverter, it would be technically challenging to do so).

SP are, in effect, telling battery owners to go elsewhere. Which is fine as a business decision but might be frustrating for customers.

It would be dead easy to add a meter on the DC connection to the panels.  Not technically challenging at all.

But useless, as you'd be measuring gross generation not net export.

Useless in isolation.  But if you know what other bits of the system are doing at the same time, you can have a damn good guess at net export.

The problem is the  master incoming busbar in the consumer unit.

It has three things connected to it:

The grid, via the supply meter, which can supply grid electricity or export from the house.

The hybrid inverter, which can supply solar electricity from the PV system or stored electricity from the battery, or can draw from the busbar to charge the battery from the grid.

House loads, which can only draw power but can do so from either source.

It is almost impossible to say whether any given kWh from the hybrid inverter has come from solar PV or has previously been stored from the grid.

(You could do it imperfectly in software with sensors to ensure that export only occurs when the battery is full, ie. when there is surplus solar. I don't know if that would be acceptable to SP but the wording of their clause suggests not.)

I agree, it would need to be done with 'live accounting' rather than simple metering  and I don't think they would find it acceptable at all.  Done in many situations (my first system of that type was in 2011/12 I think) but I don't expect to find it in many domestic installations yet.

tldkid1

UPDATE:  from application in April to British Gas asking for an export meter reading at June/end which was 1700, they finally said I would be paid from 1760kWh.  I asked where the export up to 1760 went (about £110 at their rate) and they said it just disappears into the grid and its for BG to start claiming it from the date of my export reading.  They are unmoveable on this.  Lesson:  burn that excess export than exporting it for free.  Put an extension lead over to your neighbour if you have to.

matt_drummer

tldkid1 said:

UPDATE:  from application in April to British Gas asking for an export meter reading at June/end which was 1700, they finally said I would be paid from 1760kWh.  I asked where the export up to 1760 went (about £110 at their rate) and they said it just disappears into the grid and its for BG to start claiming it from the date of my export reading.  They are unmoveable on this.  Lesson:  burn that excess export than exporting it for free.  Put an extension lead over to your neighbour if you have to.

Until they know you have exported it they can't charge it to anybody.

You have to view the period between getting your panels fitted and sorting out your SEG payments as part of the capital cost.

Nobody has profited from your exported electricity as nobody has been able to to charge it to a customer.

It's peanuts in the overall scheme of things, just forget it and move on.

Reed_Richards

matt_drummer said:

Nobody has profited from your exported electricity as nobody has been able to to charge it to a customer.

Surely it went to the neighbours' houses and it went in through their electricity meters.  So their suppliers will charge them for it, despite having paid nothing for it themselves. 

If you can put an extension lead over to your neighbour, put a meter on the circuit and charge them half price for the electricity they use, then you are always liable to be better off than exporting the electricity to the grid.

CSI_Yorkshire

Reed_Richards said:

matt_drummer said:

Nobody has profited from your exported electricity as nobody has been able to to charge it to a customer.

Surely it went to the neighbours' houses and it went in through their electricity meters.  So their suppliers will charge them for it, despite having paid nothing for it themselves. 

If you can put an extension lead over to your neighbour, put a meter on the circuit and charge them half price for the electricity they use, then you are always liable to be better off than exporting the electricity to the grid.

That's the bit that's a misunderstanding.  They have paid, and often a substantially more expensive rate than they otherwise would have.  They just haven't paid you.