Heat pumps

oliver1951

Hi I am planning to renew my heating system this year, putting in a heat pump to replace an old gas boiler. I am trying to find people who’ve already done this to find out how their experience has been and how they’ve found the cost of running the heat pump compared to the boiler and any difference they’ve had to adjust to in the way they utilise the heat pump compared to how they used their old boiler. I’m also interested in anyone who has had experience of using any of the energy companies to do their installation, or are in the process , having signed up, that’s EDF, octopus, British Gas, possibly others too. Thanks

[Deleted User]

oliver1951 said:

Hi I am planning to renew my heating system this year, putting in a heat pump to replace an old gas boiler. I am trying to find people who’ve already done this to find out how their experience has been and how they’ve found the cost of running the heat pump compared to the boiler and any difference they’ve had to adjust to in the way they utilise the heat pump compared to how they used their old boiler. I’m also interested in anyone who has had experience of using any of the energy companies to do their installation, or are in the process , having signed up, that’s EDF, octopus, British Gas, possibly others too. Thanks

I confess that I have taken a keen interest in this over the past year and even though I live in a well-insulated modern home, my gut reaction is that they are something to avoid.

FWiW, any heat pump system is only as good as its designer. The designer has to take into account the size of the house; heat loss; the type of heating pipes and the size of the radiators. Get the basics wrong and the homeowner ends up with an incorrectly sized heat pump which might not heat the home. BG now has this on its website:

‘If the heat pump doesn't provide the temperature agreed on, buyers will get all their money back, British Gas has said. It revealed that it has installed more heat pumps than any other business and is currently training 3,500 engineers to complete future installations.’

What that statement doesn’t say is that they will do the same if the heat pump is not running at an efficient COP.

Can I assume from your forum name that you are person of a certain age? I am also of the 50s generation, and I am leaning towards another gas boiler. A key part of my thinking is that I was not around, my wife would not know what to do if a heat pump went wrong. BG like many is retraining plumbers and electricians. These guys will never be the heating engineers which are common in counties like Germany. Also, my initial approaches to some local companies is that they want to work on a ‘fit and walk away’ basis.

I am sure that someone will be along to say that I have got in wrong. My response to them would be ‘microbore’ pipes.

Rodders53

One sub forum down and there's a wealth of reading for you:
https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/categories/lpg-heating-oil-solid-other-fuels

Insulate. Insulate. Insulate.  Draught proof / make air tight with heat recovery ventilation possibly.  Then look at HPs vs other fuels after doing a full heat/loss survey and calcs of the needed energy in each room.

Gerry1

Have a look through the posts from @matelodave

He has a lot of experience with a heat pump but says he would switch to gas if it were available in his area.

LoopySnooker

The only comment I would make is don’t go for a heat pump if saving money on energy costs is your main concern, as it’s far from certain that you would.

matelodave

As Gerry says, I've had a heatpump for 13 years and yes it does heat the place and keep us warm and toasty. It also produces hot water but it's more expensive to run than gas or oil at the moment and not as flexible. Because to get maximum efficiency you really need to run it for longer and at a lower temperature than a gas or oil boiler.

This works for us as we are retired and at home all day and so don't let the house cool down. However it's not so beneficial if you want a quick blast for an hour or so before you go to work and then for a few hours in the evening. 

I spent a lot of time optimising the settings because they can work out very expensive to run if you dont have them set up properly. When we could get cheap electricity (we've been with five bust energy companies) then it almost balanced out but that's not the case at the moment.

As gas is presently around 8pkwh and leccy is 30p/kwh then a heatpump with a COP of 3 will cost you around 2p more per kwh. If you use the average of 12,000kwh of gas then that's an extra £240 a year. 

Then there's the upfront cost. A replacement gas boiler will be around £4k possibly a bit more. Even with the governments £5k grant a heatpump is likely to cost you a significant amount more.

As said above, If mains gas came to our road, I'd be the first to change to gas.  We chose a heatpump to replace manky storage heaters and didn't want an oil or LPG tank in the garden

Both my daughters have had to replace their aging gas boilers this year and both have opted for gas again based on what they can afford and their lifestyles and a heatpump failed on both counts.

I'm not trying to turn you off being green, but IMO the costs wont work out until the price difference between gas and leccy narrows and the upfront costs of the equipment and installation come down. So do some very careful sums.

oliver1951

Matelo Dave, thanks. In fact the heat pump for me is no more expensive that a boiler because of the government grant. Also because I have to have everything replaced. When I said I have an old gas boiler it’s actually an old system 50 yrs maybe slightly more. So it’s new pipes, rads etc, which was also the case for any replacement gas based system. I would like to be more eco friendly. Also I think there’s an awful lot of confusion around at the moment about the future of gas. Though I don’t see many solutions. I am however concerned about the potential costs. Speaking to Daikin and mixergy ( the providers of the Ashp and the hot water cylinder respectively) I am a little concerned about the annual maintenance costs. My current annual maintenance costs are basically £100. Bear in mind my system being old is also not a complex system. Between Daikin and mixergy they are telling me it could be £500 for annual servicing alone, ( which of course is necessary for cover under the warranty). It’s for this reason I’m keen to hear from anyone who has had a retrofitted Ashp to understand what costs they have actually incurred. 

DougMLancs

From my own pre-install research it varies a lot depending on manufacturer and your installer but often avg. £150+VAT for the ASHP plus an UVC service at £95. The Renewable Heating Hub Forum has some great advice and articles you might find helpful- I’ve used it a lot alongside the MSE Green & Ethical Board for background and best practice https://renewableheatinghub.co.uk/forums

matelodave

I got mine serviced for the first three years to maintain the warranty at a cost of £200 for all three (the installer was doing a deal) however after that the price has crept up from about £100 to around £150. I now only get it done about once every three years as TBH there's not much to be done.

In fact a lot less than a service for a gas boiler. Apart from checking the system water pressure and topping it up if needed (something I can do myself) and quick shufti around the system to ensure that there arnet any leaks and the wiring is secure they don't do anything.

The only problem I've had was a sticking flow switch (notified by the system diagnostics), which happened three Christmas's ago

The service company wasn't available until January and even then faffed around and didn't come back to me until the end of Jan by that time I'd drained the hydrobox, taken the switch out, wiggled it and cleaned it myself and put it back together. It's been OK since.

IMO the excessive cost of servicing is just another inflated cost that been lumped onto heatpumps because they can.

Dont get me wrong, I'm more than happy with my heatpump but I just reckon that the industry is taking the mickey with some of their excessive pricing. I reckon that the price would start to come down rather rapidly once the government stops giving out up-front grants which IMO just inflates the prices to the value of the grant.

brewerdave

Re gas boiler replacement cost - relation just had a new boiler (not combi), pump and diverter valve done by local plumber for £2400 (as an aside - BG quoted ~ £5.5k ! ) .If you don't have to upsize rads and pipework gas much cheaper than ASHP

matt_drummer

brewerdave said:

Re gas boiler replacement cost - relation just had a new boiler (not combi), pump and diverter valve done by local plumber for £2400 (as an aside - BG quoted ~ £5.5k ! ) .If you don't have to upsize rads and pipework gas much cheaper than ASHP

Not everybody (I suspect not many actually) move away from a gas or oil boiler to save money.

It's done to stop burning stuff.

There are many, many things that we all do where being the cheapest way to do it is not what we choose.

For varying reasons, many of us attach little or no value to the benefits of not burning so much stuff. Burning less has benefits to all of us and it comes at a financial cost most of the time.