Heating and Cooling for the Next House - Solar - PV - Heat Pumps - AC

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  • shinytop
    shinytop Posts: 2,089
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    bhjm said:
    shinytop said:

    PP (planning permission) if the ASHP outside unit is within 1m of your boundary (3m in Wales). You also need PP for the A2A units (apparently  ;)).
    my quick google search said that ASHP and A2A should be permitted developments, but maybe I am searching incorrect. Can you perhaps, send a link to a source where it says a PP is now needed?

    Thanks again for your time in replying :-)

    if you have any question, or suggestion please fire away ! looking forward hearing from you.
    These are (afaik) the current rules on heat pumps, including A2A.  

    https://www.planningportal.co.uk/permission/common-projects/heat-pumps/planning-permission-air-source-heat-pump

    Don't believe any claims from manufacturers or installers to the contrary; they are making it up.  You need specific PP for any unit that is used for cooling and for more than one whether used or cooling or not.  Your single heating only unit also has to be no closer than 1m to any boundary. 

    Getting PP isn't a showstopper but some local authorities can be very difficult about noise, especially if a neighbour objects.  
    OTOH, plenty folks bung in ASA units without PP and get away with it.       
    I am struggling a bit understanding the sentence in bold.

    "In addition, the following conditions must also be met. The air source heat pump must be:
    • Used solely for heating purposes
    • Removed as soon as reasonably practicable when it is no longer needed for microgeneration
    • Sited, so far as is practicable, to minimise its effect on the external appearance of the building and its effect on the amenity of the area.
    what does it mean, If I use the A2A also for cooling? and what is microgeneration?
    Yes, the first bullet says heating only so any cooling would need planning permission. It might seem harsh but it's to reduce the noise and visual impact of unrestricted use of AC. Some also argue it reduces an unnecessary negative effect on the environment because, unlike heating, nobody needs AC in the UK.    

    Microgeneration is Ofgem jargon to cover   ASHPs, wind turbines, biomass boilers and so on.   ASHPs are included because they generate their own power; typically one might consume 1kW and deliver 3kW so it generates 2kW.  The sentence just means 'deinstall when no longer needed.' 


  • bhjm
    bhjm Posts: 341
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    shinytop said:
    bhjm said:
    shinytop said:

    PP (planning permission) if the ASHP outside unit is within 1m of your boundary (3m in Wales). You also need PP for the A2A units (apparently  ;)).
    my quick google search said that ASHP and A2A should be permitted developments, but maybe I am searching incorrect. Can you perhaps, send a link to a source where it says a PP is now needed?

    Thanks again for your time in replying :-)

    if you have any question, or suggestion please fire away ! looking forward hearing from you.
    These are (afaik) the current rules on heat pumps, including A2A.  

    https://www.planningportal.co.uk/permission/common-projects/heat-pumps/planning-permission-air-source-heat-pump

    Don't believe any claims from manufacturers or installers to the contrary; they are making it up.  You need specific PP for any unit that is used for cooling and for more than one whether used or cooling or not.  Your single heating only unit also has to be no closer than 1m to any boundary. 

    Getting PP isn't a showstopper but some local authorities can be very difficult about noise, especially if a neighbour objects.  
    OTOH, plenty folks bung in ASA units without PP and get away with it.       
    I am struggling a bit understanding the sentence in bold.

    "In addition, the following conditions must also be met. The air source heat pump must be:
    • Used solely for heating purposes
    • Removed as soon as reasonably practicable when it is no longer needed for microgeneration
    • Sited, so far as is practicable, to minimise its effect on the external appearance of the building and its effect on the amenity of the area.
    what does it mean, If I use the A2A also for cooling? and what is microgeneration?
    Yes, the first bullet says heating only so any cooling would need planning permission. It might seem harsh but it's to reduce the noise and visual impact of unrestricted use of AC. Some also argue it reduces an unnecessary negative effect on the environment because, unlike heating, nobody needs AC in the UK.    

    Microgeneration is Ofgem jargon to cover   ASHPs, wind turbines, biomass boilers and so on.   ASHPs are included because they generate their own power; typically one might consume 1kW and deliver 3kW so it generates 2kW.  The sentence just means 'deinstall when no longer needed.' 


    thanks for explanation.

    that nobody needs an AC in the UK can be argued. The house I am living in at the moment had overnight temperatures of over 30 degrees for several nights last year - it`s less than a desirable situation if you have a newborn in the house trying to sleep, a medical condition etc. But that would go to much of track - as you could argue the same that nobody needs heating in the UK. but again, let`s not go to much off topic in this threat :)
  • Martyn1981
    Martyn1981 Posts: 14,670
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    bhjm said:
    Hiya bhjm. No problem with advice, hope it helps. But bear in mind most of this is my opinion, so other thoughts and options may be better. At least you have some time to think about it all.

    So, what's a consumer unit? Have you heard the term 'fusebox', I've added a link just so you can see what I mean. So these handle the distribution of power within the house. Rather than just run a simple cable to the garage, you might be better off installing a small consumer unit (ironically, often referred to as a 'garage unit'), so that the garage can then have a set of circuits, such as lights, sockets, PV and car charger. I've separated the car charger from the normal power sockets, as you might be better off having a dedicated high power cable for it, in fact it may even be a requirement.


    ok - got it. the consumer unit  is for me nothing else than a fuse box :-D and yes - separate cable for a BEV which is more powerful is definitely a consideration. 

    Looks like there is room to run a cable from your house to garage, I'm just wondering what 'rights' you have to install cables along communal places/paths. This is something you'll need to check, but hopefully it'll be ok. Also wondering if there are some rules about the garage as it's a shared building. maybe you can add PV to the middle part, or you may need agreement from the two neighbours too. I've no idea to be honest. But really worth considering, as your part is presumably over 2m wide, so hopefully 4 panels may fit, or two long panels. And as it's a single storey roof, it's quicker and easy to work on. But (sorry for all the but's, I'm typing and thinking at the same time) .... if the garage PV is a totally separate system, then you might want to think about adding it at a later date, though I'd hope you'd get a better price for doing both at the same time.
    the path to the garage itself is not communal area, it`s solely my use. The Garage is, as you correctly identified a shared Garage. Would you know what kind of restrictions there may be could be in place that I am not allowed to put PV on the garage? Do I need my Neighbors consent on a legal basis if it is just on my area of the Garage? The ethical and good neighborhood spirit is certainly excluded from my question ;-) Should there something in the deed? Separate at a later date. Maybe, I think to get it done initially, and than adding the PV to the house if I do it in 2 stages, ideally, finances allowing of course, I would do it all in one go.

    I agree with your general findings about ASHP and A2A. So long as the units aren't too close to a neighbour, or too powerful and possibly noisy, then you should be OK. But I've heard people say that installing a second A2A unit will reguire PP. Sorry to be vague, but that's how the UK planning rules tend to work, they give a general OK ..... so long as ........ with rules that sometimes leave you wondering if you comply or not. If in doubt you can check with the local authority planning department, but their advice may be confusing too.


    a reputable installer from the area should be able to answer these question or would it be only the local council? (sorry I am new into house owning in the UK.
    Looking longer term, I agree about the hot water. If the current boiler works, and provides heat and DHW, then settle into the house and enjoy it. If after getting PV, and perhaps an A2A unit, you find it works well, then in the future you could think about the hybrid idea I've been pondering, or even replace the gas boiler with an ASHP, that runs the rads and the hot water tank.
    yes, that is probably what I am gonna do and see what will happen and how long the boiler may last. May be a bit life extending when I can heat with the AC - Can I call an AC actually an A2A heat pump?
    Hiya. Hopefully there will be something in the deed or that you can look up with Land Registry (but I'm really guessing now). Hopefully you can speak to the neighbours and see what they think/say .... but .... looks like their roofs aren't suitable as the area is small due to the garage having a hip roof so only yours is viable. This may mean they are more negative about it, and raise concerns about you damaging the roof.

    Of course, you may also find that they are great neighbours, and are more than happy for you to do it. I hope so.
    Mart. Cardiff. 5.58 kWp PV systems (3.58 ESE & 2.0 WNW)

    For general PV advice please see the PV FAQ thread on the Green & Ethical Board.
  • QrizB
    QrizB Posts: 13,660
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    bhjm said:
    The Garage is, as you correctly identified a shared Garage. Would you know what kind of restrictions there may be could be in place that I am not allowed to put PV on the garage? Do I need my Neighbors consent on a legal basis if it is just on my area of the Garage?
    Your deeds will (or should) tell you.
    Do the three garages have full-height separating walls between them?
    At my previous house, I had a garage in a block, away from my house and garden. My garage was owned by me, and I could do what I wanted with it (even split it from my house and sell it separately, if I wished). Yours could be like this, or it could be more complicated.
    N. Hampshire, he/him. Octopus Go elec & Tracker gas / Shell BB / Lyca mobi. Ripple Kirk Hill member.
    2.72kWp PV facing SSW installed Jan 2012. 11 x 247w panels, 3.6kw inverter. 30MWh generated, long-term average 2.6 Os.
    Ofgem cap table, Ofgem cap explainer. Economy 7 cap explainer. Gas vs E7 vs peak elec heating costs.
  • bhjm
    bhjm Posts: 341
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    Martyn1981 said:Hiya. Hopefully there will be something in the deed or that you can look up with Land Registry (but I'm really guessing now). Hopefully you can speak to the neighbours and see what they think/say .... but .... looks like their roofs aren't suitable as the area is small due to the garage having a hip roof so only yours is viable. This may mean they are more negative about it, and raise concerns about you damaging the roof.

    Of course, you may also find that they are great neighbours, and are more than happy for you to do it. I hope so.
    i checked the deed and could not find any indication and such installation (PV etc) are not allowed. and good point regarding the neighbors and their garages.
  • bhjm
    bhjm Posts: 341
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    QrizB said:
    bhjm said:
    The Garage is, as you correctly identified a shared Garage. Would you know what kind of restrictions there may be could be in place that I am not allowed to put PV on the garage? Do I need my Neighbors consent on a legal basis if it is just on my area of the Garage?
    Your deeds will (or should) tell you.
    Do the three garages have full-height separating walls between them?
    At my previous house, I had a garage in a block, away from my house and garden. My garage was owned by me, and I could do what I wanted with it (even split it from my house and sell it separately, if I wished). Yours could be like this, or it could be more complicated.

    yes full height walls so far I can remember. how / where would I find about if the garage is separately or together with the house?
  • QrizB
    QrizB Posts: 13,660
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    If the deeds indicate that you own the central third of the garage.outright, rather than having eg. a 1/3 share of the block of three, and don't say anything else regarding the garage, then it is in effect a very small mid-terrace house.
    N. Hampshire, he/him. Octopus Go elec & Tracker gas / Shell BB / Lyca mobi. Ripple Kirk Hill member.
    2.72kWp PV facing SSW installed Jan 2012. 11 x 247w panels, 3.6kw inverter. 30MWh generated, long-term average 2.6 Os.
    Ofgem cap table, Ofgem cap explainer. Economy 7 cap explainer. Gas vs E7 vs peak elec heating costs.
  • bhjm
    bhjm Posts: 341
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    either there is nothing specific in the deed, or I am a bit thi... in reading such a document :-(

    would the plan help?

  • Martyn1981
    Martyn1981 Posts: 14,670
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    That plan looks promising. Great to see the access route for your specific house, so QrizB's point sounds possible, which would be good news.

    Apologies if I raised unecessary concerns, just don't want you to get off on a bad foot with your new neighbours.
    Mart. Cardiff. 5.58 kWp PV systems (3.58 ESE & 2.0 WNW)

    For general PV advice please see the PV FAQ thread on the Green & Ethical Board.
  • bhjm
    bhjm Posts: 341
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    That plan looks promising. Great to see the access route for your specific house, so QrizB's point sounds possible, which would be good news.

    Apologies if I raised unecessary concerns, just don't want you to get off on a bad foot with your new neighbours.
    not at all. I like things being precise rather than questioned at a later point. 
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