EPC Rating F - help!!!

silvercar

NikiSZD said:

Slinky said:

I've no idea whether it would work or not, but ther seems to be a lot of 'assumed' with EPCs. For the sake of confirmation, or a better result, would it be worth paying for another from a different provider?

Unfortunately (for me) it doesn't work like that. The original company who did the assessment explained to me that they personally have no say over the results as they literally input the information and it spits out the rating according to what you have. As nothing will have changed since the first visit, nothing can change from another opinion of the same system. Thank you for the suggestion though.

So it depends on the quality and accuracy of the information put in. 

Do you already have LED light bulbs? Even replacing working ordinary light bulbs with broken LEDs improves the rating.

searchlight123

Slinky said:

I've no idea whether it would work or not, but ther seems to be a lot of 'assumed' with EPCs. For the sake of confirmation, or a better result, would it be worth paying for another from a different provider?

Agree with this.
My rented property was just banded a low D from a high C. Spoke with the assessor and showed him previous EPC done by a different company and after realising some of his assumptions about insulation (a lack of), etc may have been inaccurate, was re-banded as a low C again. It is not an exact science and I think there are many inaccurate assessments being done at the present.

ComicGeek

NikiSZD said:

I have a lovely (all electric) 1 bedroom flat that I want to rent out. All was going well ... until the EPC check. My property was given an F rating meaning I can't legally rent it out. I was given just 3 recommendations to improve the rating:

1. flat roof or sloping ceiling insulation (not an option)
2. cavity wall insulation (not an option)
3. high heat retention storage heaters (looks like my ONLY option)

While renovating the property in 2020 I spent £10k installing a Fischer Future Heat Aquaefficient hot water system plus their panel radiators which are individually controlled by their own thermostats so I'm hugely disappointed that I'll have to look at changing them for what I believe to be backward-looking storage heaters.

I did message Fischer who replied with some information that indicated that although panel heaters are currently rated below storage heaters they have independent reports from BSRIA, BRE & Energy Saving Trust which show that their heaters are more efficient than the storage heaters. I had hoped to add the link they sent me but as I'm a newbie on here I'm not able.

They said they've been lobbying the government and their local MP Liz Kendall to recognise their heaters and to classify them at the very least equal to storage heaters.

They also mentioned that "landlords can apply for a 5 year exemption if they have Fischer Heaters however, we are unable to guarantee that the government bodies would accept this application". I did go on to the gov.uk EPC exemptions page to try to do this but it doesn't look as though any of the options available would permit this so that's another non-starter.

Does anyone have any helpful advice to offer me please? We're forever being told there's a shortage of homes to rent but things like this aren't helping. Surely it would be better to offer lower banded homes but perhaps with a rent cap to make it more affordable for renters? And I'm advised that if my heating and hot water system were gas I'd have a higher rating (I only need to go up by 1 band) but how can that make sense when gas is being phased out and electricity is considered the greener option?

Sorry to be ranting but I'm just so upset and frustrated to have come so far but now feel at a dead end with getting my otherwise lovely property on to the market.

Absolute bunch of crooks! Fischer are so careful with their wording to make it difficult to claim mis-selling - yes, they are technically more efficient than storage heaters, but the vast majority of people are more interested in economical rather than efficient, and the two are absolutely not the same. They've paid BSRIA and BRE to provide very carefully worded statements, but none of those mention increased running costs or poorer EPC ratings (which are based on running costs, not efficiencies) - the test reports are on Fischer's website, I reviewed them for a client recently. Fischer's own website claims A+ ErP rating, but only 'when used in conjunction with heat pumps, gas boilers or solar PV.'

One option would be to install condenser less heating/cooling units in the bedroom and living room to replace the panel heaters, like the Powrmatic Vision units. Does require drilling holes in the external walls so might need freeholder consent.

Or replace the expensive Aquafficient hot water heater with a hot water heat pump from Vaillant or Dimplex - will need ducting from the cylinder to outside, so might not be possible.

Unfortunately you've spent a lot of money to install the most expensive system to run for tenants - even worse, you've spent huge sums on a well marketed product which is no better than systems at a fraction of the cost. I've had clients (and seen others on this site) who have been conned into ripping out gas central heating and replacing with these systems, and now spending 3 times the amount on heating costs. But Fischer are so careful with their wording, very difficult to challenge.

CSI_Yorkshire

ComicGeek said:

NikiSZD said:

I have a lovely (all electric) 1 bedroom flat that I want to rent out. All was going well ... until the EPC check. My property was given an F rating meaning I can't legally rent it out. I was given just 3 recommendations to improve the rating:

1. flat roof or sloping ceiling insulation (not an option)
2. cavity wall insulation (not an option)
3. high heat retention storage heaters (looks like my ONLY option)

While renovating the property in 2020 I spent £10k installing a Fischer Future Heat Aquaefficient hot water system plus their panel radiators which are individually controlled by their own thermostats so I'm hugely disappointed that I'll have to look at changing them for what I believe to be backward-looking storage heaters.

I did message Fischer who replied with some information that indicated that although panel heaters are currently rated below storage heaters they have independent reports from BSRIA, BRE & Energy Saving Trust which show that their heaters are more efficient than the storage heaters. I had hoped to add the link they sent me but as I'm a newbie on here I'm not able.

They said they've been lobbying the government and their local MP Liz Kendall to recognise their heaters and to classify them at the very least equal to storage heaters.

They also mentioned that "landlords can apply for a 5 year exemption if they have Fischer Heaters however, we are unable to guarantee that the government bodies would accept this application". I did go on to the gov.uk EPC exemptions page to try to do this but it doesn't look as though any of the options available would permit this so that's another non-starter.

Does anyone have any helpful advice to offer me please? We're forever being told there's a shortage of homes to rent but things like this aren't helping. Surely it would be better to offer lower banded homes but perhaps with a rent cap to make it more affordable for renters? And I'm advised that if my heating and hot water system were gas I'd have a higher rating (I only need to go up by 1 band) but how can that make sense when gas is being phased out and electricity is considered the greener option?

Sorry to be ranting but I'm just so upset and frustrated to have come so far but now feel at a dead end with getting my otherwise lovely property on to the market.

yes, they are technically more efficient than storage heaters, but the vast majority of people are more interested in economical rather than efficient, and the two are absolutely not the same. 

And that's by far the most important point to consider.  If you have two options - 98% efficiency run at off-peak rates for five hours, or 99% efficiency run at peak rates for five hours - then the 'efficient' option is not the best for most people.  The difference in efficiency doesn't make up for the difference in price.  I'm not sure how I feel about them being scored so low on EPCs though.

Having said that, the discussion doesn't help the OP solve their problem.  Are there any bits of the EPC that could be based on incorrect assumptions?  I've seen an 'unchanged' property get different EPC ratings based on the assessors mood when filling in the paperwork, but that's relatively rare unless there's actually something wrong or incomplete.

ComicGeek

CSI_Yorkshire said:

ComicGeek said:

NikiSZD said:

I have a lovely (all electric) 1 bedroom flat that I want to rent out. All was going well ... until the EPC check. My property was given an F rating meaning I can't legally rent it out. I was given just 3 recommendations to improve the rating:

1. flat roof or sloping ceiling insulation (not an option)
2. cavity wall insulation (not an option)
3. high heat retention storage heaters (looks like my ONLY option)

While renovating the property in 2020 I spent £10k installing a Fischer Future Heat Aquaefficient hot water system plus their panel radiators which are individually controlled by their own thermostats so I'm hugely disappointed that I'll have to look at changing them for what I believe to be backward-looking storage heaters.

I did message Fischer who replied with some information that indicated that although panel heaters are currently rated below storage heaters they have independent reports from BSRIA, BRE & Energy Saving Trust which show that their heaters are more efficient than the storage heaters. I had hoped to add the link they sent me but as I'm a newbie on here I'm not able.

They said they've been lobbying the government and their local MP Liz Kendall to recognise their heaters and to classify them at the very least equal to storage heaters.

They also mentioned that "landlords can apply for a 5 year exemption if they have Fischer Heaters however, we are unable to guarantee that the government bodies would accept this application". I did go on to the gov.uk EPC exemptions page to try to do this but it doesn't look as though any of the options available would permit this so that's another non-starter.

Does anyone have any helpful advice to offer me please? We're forever being told there's a shortage of homes to rent but things like this aren't helping. Surely it would be better to offer lower banded homes but perhaps with a rent cap to make it more affordable for renters? And I'm advised that if my heating and hot water system were gas I'd have a higher rating (I only need to go up by 1 band) but how can that make sense when gas is being phased out and electricity is considered the greener option?

Sorry to be ranting but I'm just so upset and frustrated to have come so far but now feel at a dead end with getting my otherwise lovely property on to the market.

yes, they are technically more efficient than storage heaters, but the vast majority of people are more interested in economical rather than efficient, and the two are absolutely not the same. 

And that's by far the most important point to consider.  If you have two options - 98% efficiency run at off-peak rates for five hours, or 99% efficiency run at peak rates for five hours - then the 'efficient' option is not the best for most people.  The difference in efficiency doesn't make up for the difference in price.  I'm not sure how I feel about them being scored so low on EPCs though.

Having said that, the discussion doesn't help the OP solve their problem.  Are there any bits of the EPC that could be based on incorrect assumptions?  I've seen an 'unchanged' property get different EPC ratings based on the assessors mood when filling in the paperwork, but that's relatively rare unless there's actually something wrong or incomplete.

Residential EPCs are based on running costs - commercial EPCs are based on carbon footprint. The solution for achieving a better EPC in each case is not normally the same. 

EPCs based on running costs favour gas heating, EPCs based on carbon footprint favour electric heating - the Government may well change the residential EPC calculation to carbon footprint to strengthen their 'upgrade to heat pump' agenda, but who knows.

The most significant part of the EPC is the build age of the property. If the assessor gets this wrong then all of the assumed 'as built' insulation standards will also be wrong. If two identical properties get different ratings it is normally due to one or both having the incorrect build age. That's not normally due to the assessor's mood (frankly they're not going to deliberately affect the rating, no benefit to them at all), but just an incorrect guess at the build age. It can be very difficult to judge/find out whether a house was built in 1195 or 1996, but there would be a significant difference in the EPC score between the two. The same with any extensions - each extension would be entered based on the year built, but obviously some properties have been extensively extended over many years.

For example, assume a house was built in 1982. If I said instead that it was 1983 (the assessor wouldn't check!) then the external wall heat loss would be nearly halved and any inaccessible roof insulation is assumed to be nearly twice as good. It's supposed to match step changes in Building Regulations, but in practice developers used to build out large estates under old regs so isn't very accurate at all.

The same with window replacements if you know what age the window needs to be to get a better assumption.

Not necessarily that the assessor isn't doing their job, just very difficult to find out the exact build date for most properties. If they're only getting paid very little for the EPC then they won't bother to do much research themselves.  

ArbitraryRandom

ComicGeek said:

One option would be to install condenser less heating/cooling units in the bedroom and living room to replace the panel heaters, like the Powrmatic Vision units. Does require drilling holes in the external walls so might need freeholder consent.

Am I correct in remembering that if you have more than one A2A unit in a property that you could also need planning consent? Based on an assessment of noise etc. 

ComicGeek

ArbitraryRandom said:

ComicGeek said:

One option would be to install condenser less heating/cooling units in the bedroom and living room to replace the panel heaters, like the Powrmatic Vision units. Does require drilling holes in the external walls so might need freeholder consent.

Am I correct in remembering that if you have more than one A2A unit in a property that you could also need planning consent? Based on an assessment of noise etc. 

Multiple units wouldn't fall under permitted development, so would need planning consent. That is a key benefit of the condenserless heat pumps, as planning consent isn't needed.

FreeBear

ComicGeek said:

ArbitraryRandom said:

ComicGeek said:

One option would be to install condenser less heating/cooling units in the bedroom and living room to replace the panel heaters, like the Powrmatic Vision units. Does require drilling holes in the external walls so might need freeholder consent.

Am I correct in remembering that if you have more than one A2A unit in a property that you could also need planning consent? Based on an assessment of noise etc. 

Multiple units wouldn't fall under permitted development, so would need planning consent. That is a key benefit of the condenserless heat pumps, as planning consent isn't needed.

Well, um... Planning permission is required, even for a single unit. For most people, one unit would fall under the rules for permitted development and meets certain limitations. Multiple units will require PP as would anything that also provides cooling.

Ref: https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2015/596/schedule/2/part/14/crossheading/class-g-installation-or-alteration-etc-of-air-source-heat-pumps-on-domestic-premises/made - Note G.3.a.

ComicGeek

FreeBear said:

ComicGeek said:

ArbitraryRandom said:

ComicGeek said:

One option would be to install condenser less heating/cooling units in the bedroom and living room to replace the panel heaters, like the Powrmatic Vision units. Does require drilling holes in the external walls so might need freeholder consent.

Am I correct in remembering that if you have more than one A2A unit in a property that you could also need planning consent? Based on an assessment of noise etc. 

Multiple units wouldn't fall under permitted development, so would need planning consent. That is a key benefit of the condenserless heat pumps, as planning consent isn't needed.

Well, um... Planning permission is required, even for a single unit. For most people, one unit would fall under the rules for permitted development and meets certain limitations. Multiple units will require PP as would anything that also provides cooling.

Ref: https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2015/596/schedule/2/part/14/crossheading/class-g-installation-or-alteration-etc-of-air-source-heat-pumps-on-domestic-premises/made - Note G.3.a.

We don't find that the 'no cooling' rule is being applied consistently - have had lots of projects where the LPA have confirmed that single external condensers can be installed under permitted development. Also had a few where the occupant just confirmed to the LPA that they would only run it in heating mode....

But my point still stands - condenserless heat pumps don't need planning consent, regardless of how many you install throughout the property.

FreeBear

ComicGeek said:

FreeBear said:

ComicGeek said:

ArbitraryRandom said:

ComicGeek said:

One option would be to install condenser less heating/cooling units in the bedroom and living room to replace the panel heaters, like the Powrmatic Vision units. Does require drilling holes in the external walls so might need freeholder consent.

Am I correct in remembering that if you have more than one A2A unit in a property that you could also need planning consent? Based on an assessment of noise etc. 

Multiple units wouldn't fall under permitted development, so would need planning consent. That is a key benefit of the condenserless heat pumps, as planning consent isn't needed.

Well, um... Planning permission is required, even for a single unit. For most people, one unit would fall under the rules for permitted development and meets certain limitations. Multiple units will require PP as would anything that also provides cooling.

Ref: https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2015/596/schedule/2/part/14/crossheading/class-g-installation-or-alteration-etc-of-air-source-heat-pumps-on-domestic-premises/made - Note G.3.a.

But my point still stands - condenserless heat pumps don't need planning consent, regardless of how many you install throughout the property.

G.2.a of the legislation linked to -  Development is not permitted by Class G if—

in the case of the installation of an air source heat pump, the development would result in the presence of more than 1 air source heat pump on the same building or within the curtilage of the building or block of flats