£100 payment - Nationwide Fairer Share

scepticOfCheltenham

Section62 said:

An "Investing Member" is a Member who has a Share Investment.

A "Share Investment" is defined as such by the T&C's of the account.  Some Nationwide savings accounts are share accounts, some are not.

Therefore if you have an account which is defined as a share account in the T&Cs you are an "Investing Member" and therefore a "Member", and if you meet the further conditions you can be a "Qualified Voting Member".

Nationwide's 'shareholders' are those members holding a "Share Investment", which in general will be individuals with a balance in an account defined as a "Share Investment".

Forgive me if I am wrong, but I don't think Nationwide currently offer any accounts that are classed as "Share Investments".  They were popular with Building Societies some time ago, but I think they are quite rare these days.  Even if Nationwide do still offer such accounts, anyone holding one will (as you say) be a Member but will not be a Shareholder.

The only Shareholders are people or companies who hold actual Shares in Nationwide.  These shares are not ordinary shares and do not have voting rights.  As far as I know, all these shares are held by Investment Companies, but I think it should be possible to buy some of these if you are so inclined, so they may be some individuals who are Shareholders.

We are getting rather off the original topic here, but it does illustrate how far Nationwide has moved from being a traditional building society which used to mutual societies, simply borrowing from and lending to individuals.

wmb194

scepticOfCheltenham said:

Section62 said:

An "Investing Member" is a Member who has a Share Investment.

A "Share Investment" is defined as such by the T&C's of the account.  Some Nationwide savings accounts are share accounts, some are not.

Therefore if you have an account which is defined as a share account in the T&Cs you are an "Investing Member" and therefore a "Member", and if you meet the further conditions you can be a "Qualified Voting Member".

Nationwide's 'shareholders' are those members holding a "Share Investment", which in general will be individuals with a balance in an account defined as a "Share Investment".

The only Shareholders are people or companies who hold actual Shares in Nationwide.  These shares are not ordinary shares and do not have voting rights.  As far as I know, all these shares are held by Investment Companies, but I think it should be possible to buy some of these if you are so inclined, so they may be some individuals who are Shareholders.

You're getting confused. It sounds like you're referring to Permanent Interest Bearing Shares (PIBS) and/or the newer version of these. Similar to preference shares, these are a type of hybrid capital with debt-like characteristics (they pay a coupon) but also provide loss absorbing capital to a business but, as you write, don't convey ownership or voting rights. The people and institutions owning these do not become the owners or shareholders of Nationwide.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Permanent_interest_bearing_shares#:~:text=In%20finance%2C%20permanent%20interest%20bearing,limited%20companies%20use%20preference%20shares.

IanManc

scepticOfCheltenham said:

Section62 said:

An "Investing Member" is a Member who has a Share Investment.

A "Share Investment" is defined as such by the T&C's of the account.  Some Nationwide savings accounts are share accounts, some are not.

Therefore if you have an account which is defined as a share account in the T&Cs you are an "Investing Member" and therefore a "Member", and if you meet the further conditions you can be a "Qualified Voting Member".

Nationwide's 'shareholders' are those members holding a "Share Investment", which in general will be individuals with a balance in an account defined as a "Share Investment".

Forgive me if I am wrong, but I don't think Nationwide currently offer any accounts that are classed as "Share Investments".  They were popular with Building Societies some time ago, but I think they are quite rare these days.  Even if Nationwide do still offer such accounts, anyone holding one will (as you say) be a Member but will not be a Shareholder.

The only Shareholders are people or companies who hold actual Shares in Nationwide.  These shares are not ordinary shares and do not have voting rights.  As far as I know, all these shares are held by Investment Companies, but I think it should be possible to buy some of these if you are so inclined, so they may be some individuals who are Shareholders.

We are getting rather off the original topic here, but it does illustrate how far Nationwide has moved from being a traditional building society which used to mutual societies, simply borrowing from and lending to individuals.

All individual savers who are members of a building society due holding a savings accounts with the building society are shareholders. That's why the old fashioned name for a a straightforward savings account with a building society was "paid up shares".

The Building Societies Association explains it:


"Apart from a number of exceptions, individual investors may only have share accounts with societies. The exceptions - where customers may still open deposit accounts - include current accounts; client or trustee accounts; qualifying time deposits; deposits at overseas branches; and where the society has announced publicly that it intends to transfer its business to a company."

https://www.bsa.org.uk/information/consumer-factsheets/savings/what-is-the-difference-between-a-shareholder-and-a

Section62

wmb194 said:

scepticOfCheltenham said:

The only Shareholders are people or companies who hold actual Shares in Nationwide.  These shares are not ordinary shares and do not have voting rights.  As far as I know, all these shares are held by Investment Companies, but I think it should be possible to buy some of these if you are so inclined, so they may be some individuals who are Shareholders.

You're getting confused. It sounds like you're referring to Permanent Interest Bearing Shares (PIBS) and/or the newer version of these.

Outside my area of knowledge, but as I understand it, the Nationwide CCDS scheme includes provision for voting at General Meetings, but the right is restricted to one vote per holding rather than one vote per share. 

This is then further restricted by the current arrangements where the 'shares' are held by a single nominee, thus there is only one vote available for the entire block of CCDS shares... and the nominee then says they won't use this vote.

So in terms of the commonly understood meaning of 'shareholder', I don't think the holders of CCDS shares could really be considered to be "Nationwide shareholders".

Ready to be corrected though.

scepticOfCheltenham

Any individual or corporate body that holds shares is, by definition, a shareholder.

As to what rights each shareholder has, that depends on the type of share they hold and will be defined in the conditions pertaining to the shares.  Holders of some types of shares have voting rights, others may not.

A company can of course distribute some of its profits as dividends.  Such a distribution would normally have to be applied equitably to every shareholder in proportion to the number of shares.  Nationwide did not do this, and therefore it seems that the distribution was not a dividend. 

Neither can the distribution be interest, as it was not related to the amounts the members had lent to the company.

I suppose it must be a gift, which the Nationwide Board seem to believe they can give to anyone, as and however they choose.  Who would do business with a company whose Board believes it is free to give away its funds?

Nevertheless, as we have seen in the 'Fairer Share' distribution, it seems that the Nationwide profits can be distributed in any arbitrary manner that the Board thinks fit.  It beggars belief to see that the method of profit distribution is not defined anywhere in Nationwide's terms and conditions.

wmb194

scepticOfCheltenham said:

Any individual or corporate body that holds shares is, by definition, a shareholder.

As to what rights each shareholder has, that depends on the type of share they hold and will be defined in the conditions pertaining to the shares.  Holders of some types of shares have voting rights, others may not.

Sure, but we're talking in the context of owning or controlling the company and they don't control Nationwide. We normally talk about shareholders in the sense of them having control via ordinary shares and this is the spectre your original comment tried to raise.

Section62

scepticOfCheltenham said:

I suppose it must be a gift, which the Nationwide Board seem to believe they can give to anyone, as and however they choose.  Who would do business with a company whose Board believes it is free to give away its funds?

Nevertheless, as we have seen in the 'Fairer Share' distribution, it seems that the Nationwide profits can be distributed in any arbitrary manner that the Board thinks fit.  It beggars belief to see that the method of profit distribution is not defined anywhere in Nationwide's terms and conditions.

Not quite "any" - it has to be lawful - but with that exception I think we agree on this completely.

xylophone

I suppose it must be a gift, 

https://www.which.co.uk/news/article/nationwide-100-fairer-share-bonus-what-you-need-to-know-ayoci9K4Nh26

The bonus is considered a taxable savings income and as such is treated in the same way as any interest you may earn on your personal savings or current account. 

Nationwide says the payment is its way of 'giving back to members' and that it can do this as it's a building society, not a bank, and as such it is able to reinvest profits for its members' benefit. 

For the benefit of those members who are more equal than others?

Scarum

minislim said:

Looks like I'm another one who's lost out.
Been a long term member for nearly 8 years. 
My regular savings matured in February and had used the money to pay off a holiday.
but i had delayed starting the new regular savings due to making up a short fall in holiday funds.
so at the end of march i registered as not having any savings. so missed their rather limited criteria.

so much for rewarding loyal members. 

Exactly the same thing happened to me, savings matured in February which I had planned to add to my SIPP before the end of the tax year.

NW current account customer for 25 years or more, I had the mortgage with them, many savings accounts, credit card.

How does your savings term ending a few weeks before a bonus cut off date make anyone a non-loyal customer?  Poor judgement by NW.

overspender22

I made a complaint. Ive held a flexplus account for years and the only criteria I didn’t meet was having a mortgage or qualifying savings account even though the reason I didn’t have one is because I’d tried to apply in app a few months back for a savings account (I have two already), and the app froze so I gave up. 

Complaint handler didn’t ring me, or discuss in any way. They literally just sent a final response cut and paste. 

Will FOS even entertain the complaint given the statement they put out (which I think is pure laziness)