Disputed vet bill

Heartbroken123

eskbanker said:

Heartbroken123 said:
the 25% that has been added onto my original bill is not from them, it is from the vets who have added a late payment fee, is this even legal? as the vets have led me to believe, that the 25% is from the debt collection company and it isn't it's from them there is no fee from the debt agency the vets also have not  informed me of a late payment fee, what are my rights?

The principle of late payment or debt collection fees is legal and valid, reflecting the incremental costs incurred in collection and/or lost interest, etc, but what do the Ts & Cs for your arrangements with the vets state?

I understand that, but , the letter is misleading it reads as though the 25% added is a referral fee from the debt collection agency and it isn't I called the number in the letter and they told me it is a late payment fee from the vets , the vets have not told me that the 25% is a late payment fee from them, and the reason why it has dragged on for months is , it took nearly 2 months for the vet to respond to my complaint , I told them that I am withholding payment until I get answers and that I am very dissatisfied with the treatment my dog received, I have sent 4 emails, and they have refused to answer my questions these are valid questions , I know had I of paid I more than likely wouldn't have even had a response to my complaint, unfortunately there isn't much of a choice of vets in my area that isn't owned by the same company they own all but one practice, one of my other dogs they made a mistake that cost me hundreds of pounds more they said to pay the full bill which I did that was nearly double the original cost, and to ask to be refunded the extra cost, this was then refused

Heartbroken123

Aylesbury_Duck said:

All very thorough, but it doesn't change the position, which is that you owe them their fee and your complaint is a separate matter.

What answer are you looking for?  That you can justifiably withhold payment?  You can, of course, but as you've discovered, they are lawfully entitled to pursue the debt.

They can , but they also need to provide evidence my dog received it, and they have refused to provide that evidence , vets give nothing for free and the fact they have said they will as a good will gesture not charge me for the Amoxicillin is the elephant in the room, by not administering the Amoxicillin any IV fluids would counterproductive, they have charged me for a bolus of fluids but refuse to answer how many mls, he received of it, that is like being charged for a three-course meal you have ordered from the menu but only being given the starter and when you complain the chef comes out and tells you that he doesn't need to explain himself and you will be charged for the three courses

eskbanker

Heartbroken123 said:

eskbanker said:

Heartbroken123 said:
the 25% that has been added onto my original bill is not from them, it is from the vets who have added a late payment fee, is this even legal? as the vets have led me to believe, that the 25% is from the debt collection company and it isn't it's from them there is no fee from the debt agency the vets also have not  informed me of a late payment fee, what are my rights?

The principle of late payment or debt collection fees is legal and valid, reflecting the incremental costs incurred in collection and/or lost interest, etc, but what do the Ts & Cs for your arrangements with the vets state?

I understand that, but , the letter is misleading it reads as though the 25% added is a referral fee from the debt collection agency and it isn't I called the number in the letter and they told me it is a late payment fee from the vets , the vets have not told me that the 25% is a late payment fee from them, and the reason why it has dragged on for months is , it took nearly 2 months for the vet to respond to my complaint , I told them that I am withholding payment until I get answers and that I am very dissatisfied with the treatment my dog received, I have sent 4 emails, and they have refused to answer my questions these are valid questions , I know had I of paid I more than likely wouldn't have even had a response to my complaint, unfortunately there isn't much of a choice of vets in my area that isn't owned by the same company they own all but one practice, one of my other dogs they made a mistake that cost me hundreds of pounds more they said to pay the full bill which I did that was nearly double the original cost, and to ask to be refunded the extra cost, this was then refused

I get that this is a troublesome time and so on, but that's all essentially just another paraphrasing of your grievances rather than actually answering the question I was asking, i.e. what do the vet's Ts & Cs state about failure to pay bills?

Aylesbury_Duck

Heartbroken123 said:

Aylesbury_Duck said:

All very thorough, but it doesn't change the position, which is that you owe them their fee and your complaint is a separate matter.

What answer are you looking for?  That you can justifiably withhold payment?  You can, of course, but as you've discovered, they are lawfully entitled to pursue the debt.

They can , but they also need to provide evidence my dog received it, and they have refused to provide that evidence , vets give nothing for free and the fact they have said they will as a good will gesture not charge me for the Amoxicillin is the elephant in the room, by not administering the Amoxicillin any IV fluids would counterproductive, they have charged me for a bolus of fluids but refuse to answer how many mls, he received of it, that is like being charged for a three-course meal you have ordered from the menu but only being given the starter and when you complain the chef comes out and tells you that he doesn't need to explain himself and you will be charged for the three courses

I'm really not sure why you came on here, because you seem absolutely certain about your legal right to withhold payment, and have argued with anyone who thinks otherwise.  Your restaurant analogy is completely misplaced.  Your dog received emergency care which, by your account, was delivered in a fast-moving situation where its health deteriorated rapidly.  It's likely that some of that treatment was very reactionary in the circumstances.  Trying to liken that to ordering a meal in a restaurant is bizarre.

What you seem to want to be told is that because you're unhappy with the vet's answers and the timeliness of those answers, you don't have to pay them anything until they provide everything you want.  And that the 25% surcharge is unlawful.  The general advice on here seems to have been that you should pay them and dispute the care package separately, and you've avoided answering people who've asked about the terms and conditions that will be relevant to the matter of rhe 25% surcharge.  I'm not sure there's much more anyone can say.

Perhaps you'd be better off speaking to a solicitor.

the_lunatic_is_in_my_head

Heartbroken123 said:

Aylesbury_Duck said:

The pragmatic approach here is to settle the bill, then dispute the type and quality of care received, through the regulatory body if necessary.  You're not in a position where you can refuse to pay the bill simply because you disagree with the care plan provided.  You're only adding to your costs by doing so.

 I called the debt company who told me that they had received a referral, but it is on hold, and the 25% that has been added onto my original bill is not from them, it is from the vets who have added a late payment fee, is this even legal? 

Sorry to hear of your situation OP.

On this point specifically, a penalty isn't permitted in a consumer contract and any party must lessen their losses so generally what a consumer would have to additionally pay for not paying the original amount on time would be very limited. 

If you pay the original amount outstanding the vet is very unlikely to chase you through small claims for the extra 25% and if they did I don't believe they'd be successful. 

Any other fees from a debt collection company can typically be ignored, if you have a look at the good advice here from @sourcrates:

https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/5996209/debt-collector-fees

Easy, debt collectors don’t buy debts, they just act upon instruction from their clients, in a 3rd party capacity.

Debt purchasing companies such as Lowell, Cabot, and Arrow Global buy bad debts, usually in bulk, so unless you have received a “notice of assignment” in the post, and/or a letter confirming the sale to a new owner, this company are just acting on behalf of the original client, so have no right/power or creed, to charge you anything.

born_again

Heartbroken123 said:

It is hard to explain all the details without writing a long post and I think you are getting me confused with someone else my dog didn't have any treatment for an eye ulcer and has never had treatment for an eye ulcer, (1) the timescale doesn't add up, my dog was not himself but wasn't dying he was following me around prior to being taken to the vets and within hours had to be put to sleep ,

( 2 )he was taken to the vets within a few hours of first showing symptoms and due to being a tiny dog if left untreated could easily escalate        ( 3) I was told he needed to be kept in on IV fluids and antibiotics he also had an electrolyte blood test it was NAD she wanted to do a chest x-ray I gave permission for this but said I do not give permission to sedate him because he has bradycardia  (4) I received a phone call just 45 mins after leaving the vets the vet was talking very fast this is something people tend to do when feeling uncomfortable , this was at 17.01pm  I was told he was on IV fluids and had been given a shot of Amoxicillin and that she was going to give him another antibiotic but doesn't mention the name , but he wasn't responding to treatment, a bolus of fluid 250mls is normally over 1 hour or more and  Amoxicillin doesn't work in 45 mins! I said I wanted to continue with IV fluids and antibiotics (5) second call from the vet less than an hour after the first call , vet says he is very unwell she is extremely pushy, and I do mean pushy until I finally agree to have him put to sleep, but I ask to take him home to say goodbye to my other dogs, and so he can sit on his sofa one last time I pick him up he is in a dreadful state and clearly now has pneumonia, he is so severely dehydrated that he can't even stand, and his gums were white, his skin just stood up, he would not be this dehydrated if he had received a bolus of fluid only an hour previous he would at least retained some fluid , this was all very rushed , normally I would have been in the right frame of mind to have questioned this but on the same day a very close friend had also died unexpectedly (6) 3 days after my dog was pts I called the vets for an itemized bill everything is listed but the antibiotics, and they told me he didn't have an x-ray, I ask the vets to confirm the bill is correct they confirm it is, I request my dogs clinical records I am sent them everything is documented by the vet for that day apart from any antibiotics,   (7) I find out that my dogs body is still at the vets 10 days after being pts the reason given is it wasn't documented what I wanted for his ashes, and they felt it was too soon to call, this is untrue I had spoken to them 7 days previously and it also clearly stated on my bill and his clinical records I wanted a scatter box, (8)  I send a  complaint to the vets asking for a full investigation and list clear questions I want answered and I request my SAR    (9)  28 days later I receive a reply that the vet in question is on extended leave and she doesn't want to disturb her I will receive a response in another 28  days, I'm sent my SAR 8 days late, I straight away notice my SAR has been altered , words have been changed and a lot of info missing, so much has been removed that when reading there isn't even clear consent given by me to have my dog pts, having worked for the NHS for 32 years it is drummed into us if it isn't documented it never happened so out of habit I make handwritten notes' word for word and I did this whilst speaking to the vet on the phone, (10) finally I receive a response after waiting nearly 2 months  she hasn't even given the correct reason why I brought my dog in she had written loss of appetite , it is full of medical jargon that she thinks I do not understand she lists every possible cause but the plague she answers none of my questions apart from why the antibiotics were not recorded , the reason given is confusion had arisen and the nurse forgot to transfer the antibiotics from his hospital sheet to my account, baring in mind she doesn't know at this point I have his clinical records she thinks I have my account details, this is also utter rubbish there is nothing to get confused about it is 1 sharp and a sharps bin, she says due to the error of not recording the antibiotics as a good will gesture  I won't be charged for the Amoxicillin,    she states he had a shot of Amoxicillin at 5pm the first phone call from the vet was at 5.01pm so how could the vet possible know he wasn't responding to treatment if he had only been given it 1 min before the call, it would also mean that he had been left for 45 mins after I left him at the vets before getting antibiotics and being so tiny his condition would have escalated if treatment wasn't immediately,( 11) emails go back and forth, she refuses to answer about the timescale , or why the vet has remembered to document everything else in his clinical notes but not antibiotics , or explain what the confusion was, how much mls of fluids my dog received  these are just some of the question asked , in replies she contradicts herself, inadvertently admits to her own lies the list is a long one and this is the very short version of it

If you read my post you would see the use of "our dog" has had a eye ulcer, so no confusion 👍

Would love to read the post, but it is just a solid wall of text. Makes my eyes go bad.

You have entered numbers, so can you edit the post & make the numbers a new paragraph with a line break. 👍

Manxman_in_exile

@Heartbroken123 -  follow the advice of others, particularly @the_lunatic_is_in_my_head.

Pay the vet the original bill under protest explaining you are only doing so to get the debt collectors of your back and that you are going to dispute it and will do so in court if necessary.  Outline again to them why you are unhappy.  (Put it in separate paragraphs not a block of text).

As the lunatic has said, my understanding is that unless the vets have legally assigned the debt to the debt collectors they can't do anything.  Even if the vets have done so, debt collectors can't do anything until they've successfully sued you in court.

Pay the original amount on the bill under protest and dispute it later.


PS - you obviously completely misunderstood @born_again's reference to an eye ulcer.  They weren't suggesting that your dog was suffering with an ulcer. They were trying to demonstrate that they understood your feelings as they had gone through similar travails with their pet.

[Edited for totally rubbish spelling and grammar!]