Removed chimney breast on ground floor in old victorian terraced house

droogle

I've read a few threads on this subject but I'm managing to still be confused. A terraced house that I'm interested in buying has had the ground floor chimney breast removed, too long ago for the work to have been recorded. I've seen a range of views concerning old work that no longer meets current regulations. As things stand I don't know what structural support was put in place and the survey recommends getting a structural engineer. I've read forum posts that suggest that if there are no signs of structural instability in work that was done decades ago, then it almost certainly isn't a problem. I've also seen posts which suggest that issues can manifest quite suddenly, though I don't know if that notion derives in part from the fact that surveyors have to cover themselves legally and therefore paint the worst scenario.

Thinking of options, removing the 1st floor breast seems quite appealing, thus removing the need for that area to be supported, and instead supporting the chimney stack. I'm just wondering if there's anything I should consider or look out for in terms of problems that can arise from this type of alteration?

The solicitor has said that building regulations after ten years aren't enforceable, but I wonder how much attention I should pay to the potential safety concerns of a poorly supported chimney breast from the first floor upwards?

MikeJXE

To be on the safe side it might be best to support the chimney stack

Take a look in the loft to see what might be needed and it would be a cold idea to have someone who knows what they are talking about 

Alderbank

Is it something like this that you are concerned about?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HF1pHzGkSC4&t=33s

I can't see why they call it the wrong way - it looks much quicker and easier than the 'right' way!

Teapot55

We were in our twenties & hadn’t been able to afford a survey when we bought our first house. You could rightly say we couldn’t afford not to: a few years later we discovered that directly above the little kitchen table where we sat having breakfast with the toddlers was the chimney (in the bedroom above, through the loft above that and eight foot high on the roof) supported only by the joists of the bedroom floor. 

We discovered it when we had a builder round to quote us for improvements and within five minutes he went out to his van and came back with an acuprop in his hand. He moved the kitchen table to one side and placed the acuprop between the floor and the ceiling. 

droogle

Teapot55 said:

We discovered it when we had a builder round to quote us for improvements and within five minutes he went out to his van and came back with an acuprop in his hand. He moved the kitchen table to one side and placed the acuprop between the floor and the ceiling. 

What did you opt to do in the long term?

Teapot55

droogle said:

What did you opt to do in the long term?

Ah, the builder put in an rsj (rolled steel joist?) We had applied for an improvement grant and the rear wall of the house had a very slight bulge in it. That was completely rebuilt along with a new ceiling and floor and that’s when the rsj went in. 

Some years later when money was less tight we had the whole of that double chimney taken out in order to convert the middle and back bedrooms into bedroom/ bathroom/ bedroom. The chimney breast in the room next to the kitchen is still there though. 

Teapot55

By the way, I’d trust a structural engineer with my biggest investment and potentially my life. Don’t rely on posts on an internet forum. 

Section62

droogle said:

I've read forum posts that suggest that if there are no signs of structural instability in work that was done decades ago, then it almost certainly isn't a problem. I've also seen posts which suggest that issues can manifest quite suddenly, though I don't know if that notion derives in part from the fact that surveyors have to cover themselves legally and therefore paint the worst scenario.

No, it is because it is true.

Think of a building as a Jenga game. It looks quite stable, and if there is no external input it will stay as it is.  But one small nudge can make it collapse.  In the real world of buildings that small 'nudge' can come from a variety of sources - for example an extra strong gust of wind, or snow on the roof, or vibrations from a nearby road.  Also buildings are never static, in the sense that they are imperceptibly decaying and the ground they are built on almost always moves around.

Put together, a building can stand perfectly Ok for years... then something happens which changes that.  The result can be anything from a slow progression of a crack, through to sections of the structure suddenly failing.

droogle said:

Thinking of options, removing the 1st floor breast seems quite appealing, thus removing the need for that area to be supported, and instead supporting the chimney stack. I'm just wondering if there's anything I should consider or look out for in terms of problems that can arise from this type of alteration?

You need to get a structural engineer to advise.

It is common for a chimney to be used as a means to add lateral support to walls - demolishing a chimney can make the wall unstable.  It is possible the chimney on the first floor is helping to provide lateral support to the whole wall, even though it is missing on the ground floor.

So the SE would do an assessment of lateral support, then design a solution to provide whatever lateral support is needed, as well as supporting the vertical load of the remaining part of the chimney.  There are some circumstances where supporting a chimney from first floor upwards is easier (read 'cheaper') than supporting it in the loft, and this is also something the SE will advise on.

dannim12345

Our old house had an chimney taken out at ground level only, you couldn’t tell how it was supported (or not) and I’m not sure a structural engineer could have really known without opening up the area either. 

If they don’t have any proof it was supported correctly and there is nothing obvious to see I would assume it’s probably needs some work and I think taking out and supporting at loft level would make the most sense. 

stuart45

This situation of a possibly unsupported chimney breast often comes up in a sale. The internet advice varies a lot, but people are often told things like,
It's been OK for 30 years
There's no sign of movement
The surveyor is A covering.
It was done before regs.
The tying in of the brickwork is enough.

Firstly, as a buyer, is there any proof it was done that long ago?
No signs of movement like stress fractures are easy to hide in a plastered wall. 
It's a surveyor's job to point this out.
Regs were only brought in because in the 70's thousands were being removed without any support. Before that there no reason to remove them.
Chimney breasts weren't always tied in properly. What's done on site is often different to what it looks like in a book.

As a buyer, the same situation might come up if you want to sell.

As Section62 has pointed out, buildings change over the years. Next door removing theirs is a common cause of stress fractures starting to form.

droogle

An update on this, how will inadequately supported chimney breasts affect building insurance? I'm guessing the current owner has omitted mention of it to his insurer, but surely this would mean that if it were to collapse the insurance wouldn't cover it. 

What kind of additional premium is it likely to incur in the current state?