Removed chimney breast on ground floor in old victorian terraced house

propertyrental

droogle said:

An update on this, how will inadequately supported chimney breasts affect building insurance? I'm guessing the current owner has omitted mention of it to his insurer, but surely this would mean that if it were to collapse the insurance wouldn't cover it. 

What kind of additional premium is it likely to incur in the current state?

For very good and obvious reasons, insurance applications force home owners to answer a list of questions:
Where's nearest tree? waterway, any signs of movement?  etc
I've never seen: 'is the chimney removed' or 'is the chimney supported?'

Nearest relevant Q is :' is the property in a good state of repair?' Or similar

Since
a) that's subjective and vague and
b) home-owners can only answer to the best of their ability, and are not experts, how can they aswer in relation to an invisible support that may or may not be present.

Tree/water distance from the property, anyone with a tape measure can answer accurately and be expected to answer truthfully.

and if the home owner is doing major works they can answer re the state of repair.

But your scenario? I don't see how you can be expected to answer, or how they could deny a claim if the worst happened.

doodling

Hi,

You do not need to provide any information to an insurer other than that requested - insurance contracts have not been a matter of "utmost good faith" for several years.

Insurers generally do not cover bad workmanship and the consequences thereof.

If the work carried out on the chimney was, by the standards of the time, not of good quality then I suspect it is not insured.

The insurer will continue to cover the house against the insured risks irrespective of the above.

Of course, one of the biggest risks of an unsupported chimney is that the stack falls through the roof and kills you in your bed - it doesn't matter how well insured you are, it won't bring you back from the dead.

fiish

A structural engineer check that gives certainty about this would likely be quite invasive/disruptive as it would require looking into the floor/ceiling under the unsupported chimney breast, which probably means floorboards coming up at least. A pure visual check probably will have as many caveats as the survey report, if the engineer can't see what's going on.

The seller might not be amenable to an invasive, potentially damaging inspection, especially if the house is presented in good condition. I had this situation with the house I'm buying, only it turned out my surveyor was wrong and the supposedly missing chimney breast was intact behind some kitchen units.

droogle

I've been assuming the best way to handle this is to remove the chimney into the loft, but now I'm starting to wonder what options there are for supporting the chimney at the lounge ceiling, and I don't see much come up in web searches, perhaps because it's not a popular option. I'm not sure if a type of beam could be concealed in the ceiling, or whether some kind of gallows bracket would be required running down from the ceiling, etc.

If the chimney were to be supported at the lounge ceiling, what kind of support beam would be necessary, and could it be a simpler structure than one in the loft, and therefore not requiring a party wall agreement?

user1977

propertyrental said:

droogle said:

An update on this, how will inadequately supported chimney breasts affect building insurance? I'm guessing the current owner has omitted mention of it to his insurer, but surely this would mean that if it were to collapse the insurance wouldn't cover it. 

What kind of additional premium is it likely to incur in the current state?

But your scenario? I don't see how you can be expected to answer, or how they could deny a claim if the worst happened.

Which of the insured risks would you be claiming had occurred?

Section62

droogle said:

I've been assuming the best way to handle this is to remove the chimney into the loft, but now I'm starting to wonder what options there are for supporting the chimney at the lounge ceiling, and I don't see much come up in web searches, perhaps because it's not a popular option. I'm not sure if a type of beam could be concealed in the ceiling, or whether some kind of gallows bracket would be required running down from the ceiling, etc.

If the chimney were to be supported at the lounge ceiling, what kind of support beam would be necessary, and could it be a simpler structure than one in the loft, and therefore not requiring a party wall agreement?

Removing the higher portions of the chimney might be one way of overcoming a problem with a missing portion below, but it depends whether the chimney is also providing lateral support to one or more walls.

As a general rule building control departments no longer allow a gallows bracket-type solution.

The typical acceptable solution involves putting in a framework of steel beams which would normally be 'hidden' between the ceiling and floor of the rooms below and above.  However, this obviously can be extremely disruptive, requiring work in several rooms at the same time, and possibly involving whole floors to be lifted up and/or ceilings being taken down.

Without knowing exactly what the existing situation is it is just a guessing game what work might be needed, if any.

droogle

Section62 said:Removing the higher portions of the chimney might be one way of overcoming a problem with a missing portion below, but it depends whether the chimney is also providing lateral support to one or more walls.

It's just the typical victorian terrace layout, chimney shared with neighbour on a party wall.

Teapot55

It’s a complicated mix of the asking price, what you think the house is worth, the survey costs, the funds you have available and the cost of a structural engineer. A surveyor recommending a structural engineer is being cautious - which in my opinion is sensible. 

It’s a big purchase a house and all the associated charges, as we all know but the costs if anything did go wrong would be greater. 

Then there’s the legal liability to any neighbours in the adjoining property. 

And of course the future potential for injury. The builder who called to quote me for work to my kitchen years ago fetched an acuprop from his van within five minutes of being on the premises: missing old fireplace in kitchen with massive chimney above resting only on joists (we hadn’t even had a survey - very young and innocent). Just where our children sat at the little table every morning for their breakfast. 

I guess after a visit by a structural engineer you’d also have a true idea of the more realistic cost of any essential work needed and therefore whether the potential purchase was worth the asking price. 

droogle

Teapot55 said:

It’s a complicated mix of the asking price, what you think the house is worth, the survey costs, the funds you have available and the cost of a structural engineer. A surveyor recommending a structural engineer is being cautious - which in my opinion is sensible. 

It’s a big purchase a house and all the associated charges, as we all know but the costs if anything did go wrong would be greater. 

Then there’s the legal liability to any neighbours in the adjoining property. 

And of course the future potential for injury. The builder who called to quote me for work to my kitchen years ago fetched an acuprop from his van within five minutes of being on the premises: missing old fireplace in kitchen with massive chimney above resting only on joists (we hadn’t even had a survey - very young and innocent). Just where our children sat at the little table every morning for their breakfast. 

I guess after a visit by a structural engineer you’d also have a true idea of the more realistic cost of any essential work needed and therefore whether the potential purchase was worth the asking price. 

I have no experience with mortgages, and am now reading some forum threads on circumstances where lenders won't give mortgages. Does the issue of unsupported / insufficiently supported chimneys fall into the category of something that will put a bar on mortgageability (if that's a word)?

Would it be the case that a lender would stipulate that the works are carried out to immediately fix the problem? I don't know how these things work. Or would the current owner be forced to either find a cash buyer or regularise? 

stuhse

The typical acceptable solution involves putting in a framework of steel beams which would normally be 'hidden' between the ceiling and floor of the rooms below and above.  However, this obviously can be extremely disruptive, requiring work in several rooms at the same time, and possibly involving whole floors to be lifted up and/or ceilings being taken down.

Without knowing exactly what the existing situation is it is just a guessing game what work might be needed, if any.

Of course without lifting floor boards (or penetrating ceilings) you cant really tell if the 'hidden' steel beams are already there and this really needs to be the next step.

If they aren't another possible solution which is potentially the simplest , cheapest and least disruptive would be to rebuild the missing part of the chimney breast.  You don't have to have a fireplace, you could just make a feature alcove/ cupboard/ or open shelves.